Servus
Hello, and welcome to episode 290. Just count them all. 290 of Effekt, Servus. I'm Dave.
Matthew:And I'm Matthew. And 290 is not a particularly special number. I mean, in 10 episodes time, it's gonna be 300, and that's gonna feel special.
Dave:I know. But I just saw it on the on the screen. I thought 290. It's a round number. It's it's quite a lot.
Matthew:It is. Yeah.
Dave:So I thought I'd
Matthew:just Yeah.
Dave:It's quite a lot. A tiny, quick, little bit of, you know, impromptu celebration for the fact that we've lasted this long.
Matthew:So Some podcasts celebrate their, like, twenty eighth episode. And
Dave:Tough. Tough.
Matthew:Twenty eighth episode? Piffle. Come on. Are you
Dave:doing, guys? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Anyway Take
Matthew:it seriously.
Dave:What's on the show today, mate?
Matthew:Well, we got we have a returning patron who I'm counting as a new patron. So we we always say thank you once again to him in a bit. We've got some news in the world of gaming. A couple of one thing we've talked about already, one that I think we should have talked about before but haven't in terms of new games. And then a bunch of stuff happening kind of around games companies and stuff, which I think is interesting.
Matthew:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And then, Dave, you are talking about escaping slave oh, no. We're not talking about you getting resigning again from your job.
Dave:To to become a slave to affect publishing.
Matthew:Yeah. So but but we are talking about handling difficult issues like slavery in specifically, this time, ancient Rome.
Dave:Yes.
Matthew:And then, of course, we'll work out what we're gonna do in a couple of weeks time and tell you that, or or invent it, in the next hour or so and tell you that, and then and then say goodbye. That is the full content of our program.
Dave:It is. And it's gonna be a good one. I can feel it.
Matthew:We'll wait and see. We'll wait and see. Frankly, every time I sit down to record with you, I think, is Dave gonna be good enough? Or are we just gonna have to scrap the episode?
Dave:And and, obviously, every single time, it's yay. Yes. He is. I think the same.
Matthew:Well, yeah, there
Dave:are quite a few
Matthew:episodes I think you'll find in the last year where you don't at all.
Dave:Yeah. That wasn't because I was shit. That's because I wasn't there. But on the other hand, I I I always have the same question in mind when we start about you. And then I I often conclude, yeah, that wasn't really good enough, but you're editing it, so I don't get a chance edit
Matthew:you out. So I put it out. Anyway. Anyway. Anyway.
Matthew:Right. Let's let us not banter like old friends, because we're not friends.
Dave:We're Long long time enemies and rivals.
Matthew:Let us talk about old friends returned in that we have in the new Patreon slot, we have a returning patron. So I wanna say a big thank you to Bill Payne, who was a regular donor in in in the Patreon scheme of things, and also quite an early voice on our Discord. And he's now thankfully back on the Discord, Bill. So welcome back.
Dave:Yeah. Welcome back, Bill. Thanks so much for your support, as always.
Matthew:Bill's wife had some health issues and they live in America. So you know health issues equal, effectively financial penury. But, so he had to give up the the Patreon a while back. But his wife is recovering, and he is back in the fold. So thanks very much, Bill, and
Dave:welcome back. And and And get well soon to your to your wife.
Matthew:Yes. Yes. Right. World of gaming. World of gaming.
Dave:World of gaming. What's on the docket for today?
Matthew:Right. So first of all, a a shout out for something we talked about a couple of episodes ago, which is The Blood Tree and Across the Horizon.
Dave:Yes.
Matthew:That campaign has now been live, and I guess we're kind of halfway through it now. I'm just gonna It's funded? Sorry.
Dave:I'm calling it up. I'm just gonna call up and see how long is left so we can let everyone know.
Matthew:Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You do that. You don't need to tell me that.
Matthew:You can you can make it sound like you magically know after I've finished my bit without interrupting me, making me stop, and then and then saying, this is the
Dave:thing It's we're it's gonna be one of those days, isn't it? I can just
Matthew:tell You see, Dave, this is one of the things that makes you think, is this episode actually gonna be good enough to get out? And then and then I'm gonna decide, oh, fuck it. Yeah.
Dave:It's good enough.
Matthew:Why why let perfect?
Dave:I think
Matthew:it's Royal. Yeah. Okay.
Dave:I've got a sense. We haven't actually spoken for a couple of weeks. Because you've been on holiday, and we had a week break as well where we had to record early. And so I think this is just I don't know. This is this is this is the angst coming out of not having spoken to you for nearly three weeks and and vice versa.
Dave:So they
Matthew:just And we have a lot to speak about. I think we need to have a board meeting in the early part of next week, Dave, for Effekt Publishing.
Dave:Yeah. Yeah. I agree.
Matthew:Because we've got a whole bunch of stuff that we're behind on. Yeah. Anyway, let's let's not talk about the trials and tribulations of our next Kickstarter. Let's talk about The Blood Tree and Across the Horizon. This is from Kevin Hassall.
Matthew:It is for choreolist, the Third Horizon fans who have not been listening to what we've been saying already. It It is a supplement for Coriolis, The Third Horizon, and it's also in the book Across the Horizon, a kind of player's manual
Dave:Yeah.
Matthew:For The Third Horizon. So
Dave:Two books to watch. Yeah.
Matthew:That's gonna feature a lot of the extra talents and stuff that people have created in in community stuff in the past. And it's gonna be hopefully properly printed and look gorgeous. I've backed it. I've backed it for the the properly printed version or whatever it's called. Have you backed it, Dave?
Dave:I I haven't. You haven't
Matthew:backed it.
Dave:No, I haven't.
Matthew:Because you're unemployed now, aren't you? So you're poor.
Dave:I am. Well, yes. Both of those. Am I still back here? There's there's thirteen days to go from the point of recording.
Dave:We are recording on Sunday, August 30. You've got thirteen days left if you wanna get in there and back that. As as Matt said, it's already, smashed its target, which is great. So it's gonna be it's gonna be produced. I'm not sure what it's got in stretch goals so far.
Dave:I might back it still, obviously, because it's for Corey Urlis and it's gonna be really good stuff. I mean yeah.
Matthew:Yeah. Now, Dave, this might be news to you, but and it's one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about, and we will talk about maybe next week. Don't know if it's gonna get through all its stretch goals, but I have suggested another stretch goal if it does, which is that you and I make a Life Path couch generation system for me.
Dave:Yes. I did see that. Yeah. Absolutely.
Matthew:And and I didn't actually put any promises in, because I hadn't spoken to you about it. But if you guys who are listening back it, clear all the current stretch goals, then Anne, Dave and I feel we wanna do a bit of slavery for somebody else. We will create a well, we we will offer a Life Path system. But it's important you do. I just want this to be a big success because I want there to be a market for third party Coriolis and Third Horizon stuff.
Dave:Yes. I agree
Matthew:with Because I wanna make some myself.
Dave:Mhmm.
Matthew:And also because let's fave it's favorite Coriolis, isn't it? Let's not beat about the bush.
Dave:No. That is very true.
Matthew:And I want to see a community of active presenters of presenters. Active creators.
Dave:Creators. Yeah.
Matthew:Getting getting stuff out there that expand the universe or expand the horizon.
Dave:Indeed. Literally.
Matthew:Right. Talking of expanding horizons, he says in the weakest or perhaps the most doublont tundra segue he can think of, Mork Borg and releasing a hot sauce.
Dave:Yeah. Yeah. So I hadn't I hadn't thought to hear that, really, at any point. But, you know, it's Stockholm cartel are involved, and you can never
Matthew:We will put a link in the show notes.
Dave:And you can never guess or predict or second guess what Johan and the crowd will get up to. So I I said, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I I don't know very much else about it, other than it's called
Matthew:I can I know all about it?
Dave:Okay. Cool.
Matthew:I I mentioned it to my son, Tom, the other day. And Tom likes bop bog, but also he likes hot sauce. So we looked at it in great detail. I've been in touch with Johan as well. And it is called Liquid Misery, and it is available in America from the makers of the hot sauce.
Matthew:But in The UK, it's available from the Stockholm Cartel store, which I think is called Pit Trap. I will put a link in the show notes.
Dave:Yeah.
Matthew:And it's very hot. And there are so so yeah. So the American company is called Chaco or Chacho. I'm not entirely sure how you pronounce it if you come from America. But, they'll they'll be selling it out.
Matthew:It's currently listed as sold out on the website, but actually it's not for sale yet. It's it's gonna be pre orders from, what I think will be tomorrow if you listen to this when it first comes out on, I think, the September 1. And it comes in two forms. One is a little yellow bottle of, Liquid Misery. The other form it comes in though is a boxed set.
Matthew:And I think the contents of that box set are kind of interesting. Because there is in that box set, and there's only 300 copies of this, but there is a brand new version of Mork Borg.
Dave:Okay. Well, alright. So is that is that like like a second edition, or is this is this like an adventure?
Matthew:It's it's kind of fanzine formatted, so it's not a second edition.
Dave:Right.
Matthew:The story, and I get this from the mouth of Johan Norr himself, Johan, not actually from his mouth, but from his Facebook messenger. They bay he basically asked Pele to do an adventure to go in the box. And Pele said, well, while I'm an adventure, why don't I do a new stripped down version of Borkpaul that uses just a couple of d 6 and a coin? And so that's what he's done. It's a stripped down version of Borkpaul that uses just a couple of d 6 and a coin.
Matthew:So I'm counting that as a new rule set, a new Right. Simplified rule set, and possibly closer to the ideals of fanboys like us who mostly have d six and don't have all that many polyhedrals. And it comes with a t shirt and a patch to go on your leather jacket and a bottle of sauce, obviously.
Dave:Yeah. Okay.
Matthew:And stuff like that. And it's a 115 pounds, I think, that version.
Dave:Right.
Matthew:Okay. But there's only 300 copies of them. And I imagine they will sell out quite soon.
Dave:Like hot sauce.
Matthew:Yes. Yeah. They'll sell like hot yeah. Oh, and it comes one of the other things it comes with is it comes with the coin that you'll need for this new system, which has got on one side of it, I think, a chili plant, on the other side of it, a mask. Heads or tails, I guess.
Matthew:Anyway Interesting. We we will endeavor to get a review copy of this hot sauce, and I'll get my son to taste it because, you know, I'm an old man. My mouth my mouth can't take chili anymore. Well, it's not so much my mouth, but the other end.
Dave:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't we don't need to know. Thanks very much.
Dave:More more information than one needs than twenty one minutes past nine on a Sunday morning.
Matthew:Yeah. So, yeah. That's that's the news I have here.
Dave:Interesting.
Matthew:What's next on the agenda?
Dave:Well, next on the agenda, Monty Cook. Monty Cook appeared to have fallen victim to a little AI controversy.
Matthew:Yeah. Monty Cook, it has to be said, have got, have had for some time a very strict policy AI.
Dave:And well, it's all part of their core values that they they put out.
Matthew:Mhmm.
Dave:I think, you know, I've I've got the quote here. It says, generating imagery or text through a trained algorithm AI is the exact opposite of inspiration, vision and passion. So they are dead against it. In fact, it's a betrayal of the values expressed here. But it appears that they've had a social media advert video, which was AI generated.
Matthew:I think somebody else has made a sort of documentary about, you know, the the advantages of playing role playing games, which mentions them. And they, I think, probably took out the segment that mentions them and put it online and said, look, we agree with all of this. And then, people pointed out that some of the shots in that video
Dave:Didn't make
Matthew:Obviously, any AI generated because there's some kid holding oh, what I thought was fascinating, actually, in terms of a composition shot, a character sheet. I may air quoting here. You can't see me do the air quotes, but I'm doing the air quotes. A character sheet. And also in that character sheet, a Magic: The Gathering card, like the Gathering cards
Dave:Yeah.
Matthew:Are a vital part of playing well, playing games. And that character sheet doesn't even say character sheet at the top.
Dave:It's got gobbledygook on it, isn't it? It's doesn't make any sense at all. Yeah.
Matthew:So I think when this was pointed out, Monty Cook and the gang felt very upset that they've kinda been duped by this. I think they have now recreated it shot for shot with actual real assets. So good on them for taking that stand. But this is the thing. It's like the retail store that was selling our game a couple of months ago in California that created AI generated stuff.
Matthew:It doesn't present the book to its best. If you do an AI generated image of the book, know, people will have a very different opinion of what the book presents. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew:I mean, you may not like the front cover of our book, but the AI version of the front cover of our book
Dave:Was worse.
Matthew:Is not our book.
Dave:No. And it's not like I say, it's a misrepresentation. I mean, again, on the face of it, having a quick look at that video, it was like, oh, wow. This is quite cool. But then it was obviously AI generated.
Dave:The image of our book was misrepresenting what we were producing and misrepresenting it in a way that there was no real way for anyone watching it to realize that that wasn't the actual product. And if they looked at it and didn't like it, then that video was gonna have been damaging us commercially. Yeah. So, yeah, we had a had a chat with them and told them they had to change it or take it down.
Matthew:Yeah. I don't know whether they've done that. Let's have a look at
Dave:that. Really. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, you know, it's ubiquitous.
Dave:It's so easy for someone like that to do a little AI video promotional video, which I can understand why a shot like that might want to do that because it's it's, you know, on the face of it, good marketing material.
Matthew:But Yeah.
Dave:It's yeah. I mean, I guess this this Monte Cook thing is I mean, they've they've I guess they that all they are guilty of is not having checked properly in this one. Because it's not as if they were using AI content for their books or for their artwork. It was, you know, a promotional thing created by somebody else that they went, yeah, this looks cool. Crack on.
Dave:Without actually doing their due diligence to make sure it was, you know, created appropriately or with the values that they are that they stand by. So it's not it's a controversy it's a controversy in one way, but I think it's not a, oh my god. Look at what Monte Cook are doing. Aren't they terrible? Yeah.
Dave:It's a mistake on their part, which I'm sure they won't again.
Matthew:It's not hypocrisy.
Dave:No. Is. Yeah.
Matthew:I say, falling victim to the ubiquity of of this as a creation tool. It's so annoying. I I have this kind of pin board software that I use through my other company, my professional company called Miro, which can be a great brain disturbing software. A whole bunch of people can sort of get share the same board and
Dave:Yeah.
Matthew:Draw stuff and make connections. And, I've used it previously even though it's for my other company. I've used it for effect work in that I often put, mood boards, the sort when we when we were commissioning illustrations. Yeah. Before, I've used it for mood boards.
Matthew:Now, apparently, it's an AI tool, and an AI assistant will be, you know, helping you as you do this stuff. It's not what I want. And I realize probably have suddenly revised terms and conditions at some point. Oh, all those pictures that you've put up, yeah, we'll have those for training our AI generative nonsense. Fuck off.
Matthew:Yeah. Yeah. Fuck off, AI. I think I'm gonna cancel that in my other job. I'm make sure that there's nothing on there I need to keep.
Matthew:I'm gonna cancel my subscription to that. Yeah. Just makes me so gross. Yeah. Just makes me so gross.
Matthew:But, also, the other thing about this is it's so ubiquitous. We've lost the battle against it already. We could only stand on our principles. We've just got to, you know, it's not gonna go away.
Dave:No. No. No. That A
Matthew:couple of years ago when when people had you know, it was drawing people drawing pictures of people with six fingers, then we could kinda go, well, yeah. It's gonna have to get a lot better before anybody starts using it seriously. Well, now it is a lot better. People are using it seriously, and it's just ubiquitous.
Dave:Yeah. And again, you know, I think, you know, there's also, you know, that there's a line there's a line to be drawn because things like that that that that software you're talking about are really good collaborative tools for people, particularly if they're, dispersed. You know? And it's it's it's basically putting you in a room with a whiteboard. Yeah.
Dave:Which is fine. You know? That's absolutely fine. If if it's putting you in a whiteboard that is doing all the work for you through AI, then that's a different kind of fish. But if it's an if it's an enabler for human human inspiration and human effort, then those things are fine.
Dave:But then, like you say, the point you're particularly pissed off about is the fact that they've gone, oh, well, we've got it. We're gonna scrape everything you've got off it and use that for our own AI purposes.
Matthew:I mean, don't know. I've got it. I've only discovered that this morning. They I'm
Dave:probably have.
Matthew:Go for it.
Dave:But, yeah. Why No. Wouldn't And I suspect there's I suspect you've given them permission to somewhere in the in all the terms and conditions.
Matthew:Well, I'm sure. So Along with the soul of my firstborn child.
Dave:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I know.
Dave:Yeah. I mean, nobody nobody ever reads those things. No. With the exception of my dad, who who is who is such a bloody minded old pedant that he reads all of them and actually then finds that there's a lot of shit in them. Quite quite often, they just don't make any sense when you get deep into them.
Dave:Yeah. But, yeah, it's it's an easy mistake to make if you're not being being careful about it. And I think in this case, it's very much a oversight rather than a
Matthew:Yeah. Yeah. It is an oversight, and it was corrected as soon as it was drawn to their attention.
Dave:Yeah.
Matthew:So well done then. Talking of well done and values and shit like that, Rowan, Rook and Deckard have recognized a union.
Dave:Yeah. Okay. Cool.
Matthew:Now Which union? Or
Dave:is this one that the that's that's been created particularly?
Matthew:No. No. No. I think I think it's an existing union possibly with American origins. Just gonna dig it out the the story about it because I think it's interesting.
Matthew:I mean, so part of me my first thought is, why do they need to recognize union? They're all a bunch of mates. We know them. We've I you know, I've had run ins on Twitter with them, but also I've had meals in in Essen with them. And they're a lovely bunch of people.
Dave:Yeah.
Matthew:And they make some lovely games. And I'm thinking, why do you guys do the union? But I think almost it's a principle. It's about their values as opposed to
Dave:Yeah. What they are. So yeah. Trust. So yeah.
Matthew:So Boston.
Dave:It's the independent it's the independent workers union of Great Britain is
Matthew:There we go.
Dave:The one that that Maz Maz Hamilton has voluntarily recognized Mhmm. For for for Raradie, which is cool. I mean, it might not like you say, for a small outfit like that, who are all mates and and, you know, work together, at this point, it might not actually be anything other than a recognition that this is the direction that things should go. They might not need it, but it's there, and it will be there from now on as a as a And
Matthew:I think it's a good principle that says, hey, you other bigger games companies that maybe do use a lot of independent labour, you know, you should do the same thing.
Dave:Yeah. And I think there are, you know, I've had experiences in my time as a freelancer that have been suboptimal, shall we say, for me as a as a as an independent content creator for other companies where you you get, you know, not deliberately, and I don't think they ever set out to do it that way, but the way it ended up, I got royally shafted for having done a lot of work which I didn't get paid for, And there was nothing in there where the company bore some of the risk with me. So I basically bought all the risk. I hadn't really understood that risk when I'd accepted the job. But then I was the one that got punished because I didn't get paid for any of it.
Dave:Yeah. And there should be things you know, that'd be where a union would be useful, because at least it'll be a lot easier to have the conversation Hang on guys, surely, you know, I've done my part of the bargain. Surely you should be at least compensating me to some degree, because you've asked me to do it and I've done it. Okay. Other things have happened that the work would never get.
Dave:You know, that particular line was being shut down because of the IP holders, which wasn't their fault either particularly, I guess, although they're managing that relationship. But, I bore the risk for that. They didn't bear any of it. So it's But I think in those kind of cases, having access to a union who could at least give you advice or give you some support would have been useful. Because I think a lot of people, you know, and me included in that instance, don't make enough of a fuss because they fear that that will oh, they're a troublemaker.
Dave:They're not gonna get work in future. Whereas Yeah. That's that's not that that will be a unfair conclusion of that that that relationship. But I guess a lot of people who are freelancers who don't get paid very much anyway would be thinking, well, if I make too much of a fuss, I won't get any more work. So I'll take this one on the chin.
Dave:And a union would help mitigate that, I think, as well.
Matthew:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Maybe you should join a union, Dave, and then then you could get paid for the work you do for Effekt Publishing.
Dave:I can I can take myself to a tribunal? Yeah. For making me work for for nothing. Yeah. Maybe.
Dave:Maybe.
Matthew:We will I'll we'll put I'm I'm just reading, in the independent workers, website, their press release about this. And I'm gonna post it cause, you know, maybe it's a thing. Maybe it's a thing we should do. I mean, obviously, not for you and I, we're mostly the independent workers and we're still we're still not paying ourselves. I I don't know whether we're employed by ourselves yet
Dave:we're treating ourselves very badly aren't we actually
Matthew:we are so
Dave:anyway so actually well done to Maz and the crew Rowan, Richard, Deckard, for taking that little step. And it's as you say, if it means nothing else, it's a indicative signature of where the industry should be moving.
Matthew:Yeah. Absolutely. I could get into a long sort of rant on on unions and people really should belong to them and stuff. But let's not let's not let's not do that because there is still some more world of gaming you used to have, and we're almost half on our way through the
Dave:because we're not this this isn't like an industrial relations podcast, is it? It's a
Matthew:No. It's not an industrial relations. And and also, Dave, I'm the boss, and you are forbidden from joining the union. Just make that really clear.
Dave:Okay. Well, you're not the boss. I'm you're forbidden from joining a union.
Matthew:No. You bastard.
Dave:And I'm not about to either. So.
Matthew:Okay. Right.
Dave:Yeah. I've never belonged to a union in my entire life.
Matthew:Ah, have you not?
Dave:Well, I'm
Matthew:not in surely, is civil service not have don't have a union of some
Dave:No. No. Not
Matthew:in Sort of
Dave:Not not in my department. We we had a
Matthew:Oh, no. Not in your department. We had, like, a
Dave:we had, like, a representation body, which followed we've basically followed a lot of the union's rules and regulations. But, actually, the the the worker relations in that department were actually pretty good on the whole for that reason, really, I think.
Matthew:Yeah.
Dave:But, yeah, I mean, I've seen
Matthew:some I've seen some I think I'm still a union member, but I'm just looking at this one and thinking, you know, because I've been a union member. I I'm a very firm believer that management shouldn't be in union. So when I was a manager at the National Trust, I I rebuffed approaches from the the, you know, the recognized union and National Trust to join them. Okay. But then when I when I stopped being a manager, I joined the union then, and I have indeed not walked past picket lines in other places where that union has had museum staff or heritage staff out on strike.
Dave:Yeah.
Matthew:So I'm a firm believer in unions and also a firm believer that management shouldn't join unions, but that's by the by. Anyway, yes. Anyway. We I that gets us into the industrial relations podcast that we're not.
Dave:That we're not. Yeah.
Matthew:So If
Dave:let's Yes. Listen. Listen. If you would if you would like us to become an industrial relations podcast, let us know. We could do a special.
Dave:Not that Yeah.
Matthew:We could.
Dave:Either of us. So I'm certainly no expert on industrial relations. But that's
Matthew:Or even a union member.
Dave:Or even a union member. So, you know, so I I could do my traditional listening and gafforing. Yes. Well, yeah.
Matthew:Which you do so well, Dave.
Dave:I'm I'm frank. I've 290 episodes of practice. It's, you know, it's gotta get good at some point, isn't it?
Matthew:Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. But I've I've also discovered that you have started to learn about stuff that we talk about in the world of gaming, which isn't the point.
Matthew:Right. So tell me everything you know about Dark Conspiracy, Dave.
Dave:I I think I've told you before that I know very little about Dark Conspiracy. Think on the previous I think on the previous episode, we had this very same conversation. It seems I seem to remember.
Matthew:Dude, have we talked about Dark Conspiracy on the
Dave:previous episode?
Matthew:I think
Dave:we mentioned it, but I don't think we talked about it in any detail. Then you asked me, what do you know about Dark Conspiracy? And I said, fuck all, frankly.
Matthew:Oh, well. You see, I put it in the running order because I thought we hadn't covered it and maybe we should have done, but maybe I'm going mad.
Dave:I'm not sure we covered it in detail. I think we might have just mentioned it. Unless we're talking about
Matthew:anyway, Duck Conspiracy
Dave:Yeah. Go on.
Matthew:Is coming from Mongoose Publishing. They now have they now own everything that Games Workshop used to do. Not Games Designers Workshop, I should say. GDW
Dave:Yeah.
Matthew:Used to used to own. And so they're bringing this back with their a version of their modern traveler rule set as opposed to the weird d 10 based see, the thing is I know very little about dark conspiracy. The one that knows about dark conspiracy among us and our friends is Andy Exius on the the Discord. So if you're on the Discord and you're a patron and you're on the Discord, talk to Exias about the history of Dark Conspiracy. We have got other experts actually as well.
Matthew:I think on on our Discord and among our fandom as well. So, guys, you can all do better than us about what Dark was. It was a kind of x files y style game, wasn't it?
Dave:Don't tell them that because they'll think, well, why the hell are we listening to these two guys if we actually know more about this than they do?
Matthew:They can have their own Dark Conspiracy podcast if they want.
Dave:That is This
Matthew:is the world of gaming section of a Year Zero engine game podcast. We pretty much know all there is to know about Year Zero engine games. Anyway, it's on backer kit. It's only a when you hear this, it will only be about ten days to run. It's been successful.
Matthew:Back it, if you like that sort of thing.
Dave:Yeah, it's done. Yeah, it's done very well. It's got nearly a thousand backers. It's got a 120,000. Hey, some of the artwork looks very good.
Dave:I like I like the style. I think that's cool. Again, I don't need another kind of Cthulhu esque, X Fighter, X Files esque kind of game right now, really. Kind of off that train for for the moment and have been for a while.
Matthew:I'm generally not sure that I need another game at all because I think I've got more games as you once calculated. I've got more games than I've got years to live.
Dave:Yeah. Yeah. Likewise.
Matthew:So, yeah, I think we have to be a bit picky.
Dave:But it, I mean, it looks lovely. It's obviously got a lot of popular support. And as you say, if it's using the Traveller system, then it's gonna be familiar to many, many people. But yeah, so as you said, twelve days left at the point of recording Sunday, August 30.
Matthew:Yes. Sorry, I've just been distracted by Yeppa's response on on the Discord, read the subject of hats, but I'm that's all I know. We are we are not a hat podcast either, so I'm moving straight on.
Dave:I was well, I was gonna comment that flat caps are there's there's never a good time for a flat cap. Now, Yepper might disagree with me on that one. But, yeah. I you're you're not gonna you're not gonna get a flat cap, are you?
Matthew:I would no. I I I just commented that I feel I'm being aggressively marketed flat caps to because of my age in particular. Are actual YouTube ads that come on now suddenly for the last month or so that are kind of going, oh, now you're too old to wear a baseball cap. Wear one of our fabulous caps instead. As an old person with a receding hairline, I find these caps remarkably comfortable.
Matthew:Fuck off you.
Dave:And and these all start, morning, Matthew. You're too old for food. Yeah.
Matthew:Yeah. God. And then funny enough, though, do have to tell a story. I was on a holiday in Cornwall, and we went to Fatface. And Fatface had Mhmm.
Matthew:On sale some some cap type thing, which I have to say, when I tried it on my my daughter had been looking at it initially, but then I tried it on, and it was remarkably comfortable. And I didn't want it. I'd no point was I gonna buy it, but my son was there as well. And he said, I've been a This is a catch line to a YouTube sketch show that Diane Morgan used to do with somebody else called The And there'd be two incredibly pretentious The same couple of people would play a couple of incredibly pretentious people. Yeah.
Matthew:Barber and model and dancer and stuff like that. And the last line would always be something like, we've been wankers for two years. And and Tom whispered in my ear as I had this on. I was bowing myself in the mirror going how comfortable it was. And he said, you've been wankers for two years.
Matthew:And I'm asking I don't
Dave:I think he was right.
Matthew:Is. So anyway, yeah, that's that's a bit of a diversion. The most important news, just to get to the end of
Dave:Our World of Gaming session.
Matthew:World of Gaming is I and not you are gonna be at Tabletop Scotland representing the Free League with our friend Paul from the fine city of Edinburgh itself. The two of us will be selling you Free League games and answering all your Free League questions at Tabletop Scotland next weekend.
Dave:Indeed. Sadly, yeah, I I can't I have a a family wedding to go to, which will be lovely and fun, but it does unfortunately mean I I can't make it to Scotland for the weekend. But I'm sure you'll all be fine in Matthew's in Matthew's care, is it where?
Matthew:Yeah. Whether I'll be fine, I don't know. Paul is a lovely coworker there.
Dave:Paul is great. Yeah.
Matthew:When we were there last year, he did kind of cover we we each there was a Free League stand last year and a Tails of the Old West stand. And we would swap over. You did most of the Free League, and I did most of the Tails of the Old West, I seem to remember. Is that right? Or did we swap back and forth?
Dave:There was a bit of swapping back and forth, wasn't there?
Matthew:But there was also some lovely voluntary cover from Paul, which is Yeah. Why when when you said you couldn't come this year, a, we decided not to run the Telsier West stand. But, also, we said to Anna, oh, Paul's a lovely bloke. Let's give him some work. So the two of us will be on the Felix stand, and there won't be a, effect publishing stand this year.
Dave:Boo. Never mind.
Matthew:That's fine. That's fine. Next time, we may well have more product to sell.
Dave:Yeah. And we'll be at Dragon Meet as well, so that'll be cool.
Matthew:Yeah.
Dave:Yeah. And you must say hi to Paul for me. He's a lovely lovely bloke. Real real pleasure to work with and real real fun guy. But yeah.
Dave:Yeah. You can give us a report on that next time.
Matthew:Yes. Oh. Oh. But you're skipping straight ahead to next time. We're not gonna do your feature on Slavery in
Dave:No. I was just finishing off that point by saying everyone can expect a report on that next time.
Matthew:Brilliant. That's all.
Dave:It's Now
Matthew:let let's make a really cat candid segue to your next feature, which is on slavery in Rome.
Dave:Before I start, I want to set a caveat. As I'm talking about slavery over the next few minutes, I want to state that where I use words like slave, owned, and master, I'm not making any value judgments about the institution of slavery or enslavement or about individuals who had been subjected to it. I'm using the terms as the best way to convey a meaning relevant to the subject at hand and the period in question. I am very happy to have a full conversation about the way modern historians can manage the semantics around slavery, but have not prefaced this article with that as that's a long and complex conversation that deserves a proper airing, and this article will be too long already. Thanks.
Dave:Ancient Rome makes for a wonderful setting in which to forge a role playing game as people are enthralled by the drama of the history and the glamour of the fiction that brings that world to the page or the screen. Who didn't watch the original gladiator and go wow as Maximus and his fellows emerged into the arena of the Colosseum for the first time. But ancient Rome brings a massive range of material and concerns that need to be managed. First and foremost, ancient Rome covers a period of at least one thousand one hundred years, possibly a lot longer depending on when you classify the end of the empire, and that period covers a lot of different settings. Ancient Rome also brings the issue that you have with pretty much any period of history or game that wants to set itself in the real history.
Dave:That of the shitty things humans did to each other in those times. The biggest issue for a historical ancient Rome game is slavery. The first thing we need to do is to understand a little bit about ancient history and Roman slavery itself. We also need to recognize the context of the period. The world and the lived experience of those who populated it was very different from our experience of largely western, democratic, affluent, and peaceful societies.
Dave:Populations were so vulnerable to conflict, raids, and wars between city states, empires, monarchies, and so called democracies. There was no guarantee of victory or safety, and your very way of life was at risk in a way that ours is not. Part of the reason the Romans were so ruthless in defeating Carthage in the third Punic War was the difference between Carthage's belief that war was an extension of negotiation while your victories on the battlefield secured you better terms in the eventual and inevitable peace treaty, and Rome's belief that the war with Carthage was an existential fight to the death, and that if they lost, they and their way of life would be exterminated. Then when it comes to slavery, everyone in the ancient world took captives and held them as slaves. Literally everyone.
Dave:The Carthaginians and Parthians were slave societies. The Spartans held a whole conquered population, the helots, as state agricultural slave labor. And even the Athenians, where their reputation for democracy, citizenship, and enlightenment, lived in a society that relied upon slavery. Now this is not an attempt to excuse or downplay Roman slavery. I'm just setting the context of the ancient world.
Dave:And that said, Roman slavery was on another level, especially in the late republican period. For my purposes, I'm defining that as one hundred and forty six to thirty one BCE, the period from the end of the third Punic War to arguably the year the republic finally breathed its last. The number of people dragged into slavery or born into slavery under the Romans must inevitably have dwarfed the numbers from those other ancient civilizations, although it's also possible to conclude that this is an obvious result of Rome's military success and dominance. The first thing to note is that in the ancient times, slavery was normal. That isn't to say we shouldn't denounce slavery in the ancient world, as of course we should, but to the people of the time, was normal, seen as the way the gods had ordained the world.
Dave:Slavery under the Romans was based on a pyramid structure. In a very simplified rendition, it involved the following. At the bottom, you had the vast majority of enslaved people, agricultural workers and those in mines, quarries, and similar backbreaking work. On the whole, they would have been held under strict conditions under the control of a villicus, an overseer who would often have been a slave themselves, with little or no prospect of ever improving their lives. Then you had those who would do manual work, but perhaps of a less debilitating variety.
Dave:Dock workers, cleaners, craftspeople, and the like. They would normally be owned by a private individual for whom they worked. Then you had the public slaves, a Roman slave civil service if you will, who did all the administrative, bureaucratic and related tasks to support the state and the state religion. These people on the whole would be better off than those lower down the pyramid. And finally at the top, you would have household slaves.
Dave:Now these could vary widely in their position and life experience. Some would be at the top as dispensators, also known as household stewards, personal servants, secretaries, tutors, pedagogues, and so on. They might have much autonomy, could even earn personal fortunes and own other slaves, and many of them did. The rest would be household servants of one type or another, but would gain the relative benefits of being part of that household. Many slaves holding positions in the upper tiers of the pyramid could expect to have lives that, while hardworking and always at the whim of their so called masters, were relatively stable and safe, and sometimes had prospects for improving their futures.
Dave:There are even documented cases of individuals selling themselves into slavery, where they had a skill to offer, as a tutor, for example, and they saw it as a way to otherwise avoid penury and starvation. Some of those people could, in some circumstances, seek to improve their position and ultimately win or purchase their freedom. But none were free. None had any legal status other than as someone else's property. All were forced to do whatever their masters told them or suffer whatever whims their masters may have at the risk of terrible punishments for some perceived transgression or for little or no reason at all.
Dave:A frequent punishment would be flogging, which would be terrible, could leave permanent scarring or even be fatal, but torture and crucifixion were also entirely legal punishments to inflict upon a slave. As you can see, the institution of Roman slavery was complex and frequently brutal, but offered a sliver of hope of freedom that was intended to be the carrot that along with a vicious stick would keep slaves enslaved. So how do we mute this head on in a game while still making the experience fun and fulfilling? Stories may inevitably involve the player characters interacting with people who have been enslaved, either on a close and personal basis, slaves they may have in their own household, or more broadly in those they meet elsewhere or those who are part of another household. You could simply avoid the issue and refer to servants rather than slaves, but that rather misses the point of a historical game that wants to pull back the curtain and reveal some of that real history.
Dave:It might seem almost impossible, but actually I have a plan, and it revolves around two things, education and choice. Now we talked a bit about education when we were creating Tales of the Old West. As you know, in that game, we dived into the darker elements of the West's history and tried to lay them out for those playing the game. I was very careful to avoid giving the impression that we were trying to force education on anyone, in the going back to school sense, or that we were making a game as an educational tool. We most definitely were not.
Dave:We were making a game for people to play and enjoy, but if we were able to help them learn a little bit along the way, then that was great. This was especially important as we wanted to lift the veil on some common misconceptions that would then broaden the scope for stories that could be told in the game. I think this approach is doubly important for a historical Roman setting. Understanding the period a little bit will help players avoid stereotyping or glorifying the unpleasant parts of the history, while opening the door to telling stories that involve enslaved people or the institution of slavery, or that perhaps tell of a player characters fall into and rise from slavery. Now there's choice.
Dave:There are several points worth making here. The first question should be whether the group wants slavery to be a historical fact of the setting, or a major social issue these characters engage with, or something that remains mostly off screen. Of these, I'd recommend the first or the second option, as the third hides an important fact that slavery existed and thus doesn't lift the veil on the history in the way I'd like the game to do. Secondly, the game needs to give the players and the GM the choice of how they want to play it. Players and groups should be enabled to play characters who have been enslaved should they wish to.
Dave:All must agree the boundaries for that story, a conversation that needs to be part of every campaign's session zero. For example, abuse, sexual exploitation, and torture should be outside the scope of any reasonable person's can, but the struggles, trials, and tribulations of those suffering slavery could be something the group would want to explore. Conversely, if the players do not wish to play a character who has been enslaved, then there should be no pressure or compunction for them to do so, either from the game or the other players around the table. Each individual must have full control over that choice. Third, we need to ensure that slaves and enslaved characters are not simply cardboard cutouts.
Dave:It's stating the bleeding obvious, but those real people who really suffered the experience of slavery were full human beings with loves, hates, fears, ambitions, and hopes. The game needs to provide the tools to make sure those characters are treated as the full human beings that they are representing. And finally, it needs to be clear that player characters are not obliged to endorse the attitudes of ancient Rome, merely because the setting is Roman. It's quite a topic to delve into and unpack, but well worth the time and effort. Among everything else, ancient Rome is also a varied, fascinating, vibrant, and exciting time and place in history.
Dave:In fact, perfect role playing material.
Matthew:So I have questions, Dave.
Dave:You always
Matthew:Great essay. It's I'm gonna say it's a bit of a justification for this is this is what I wanna do anyway, so I'm doing it. There's a little bit of that in it. And these are the reasons why I'm doing it. But you do say you know, obviously, there's a a degree of optionality that you're offering here.
Matthew:I'd like to know so that I I'm my con not my concerns. That's the wrong thing to say. My curiosity is how do we do this? Ages ago, ages ago, and I still think it's a good idea that I'd like to explore with you some more, we talked about maybe there being four sort of mini games set with the same system where in one you play politicians, in one you play generals, in one you play women running the household, in one you play the slave class. And obviously in that sort of system, that's quite an easy way to separate out.
Matthew:If you don't want to play slaves, just don't pick up that that book. Say, right, we're not doing that one. We're only doing this one. But assuming that you're going to persuade me that we want a more traditional great big 300 page tome, which I'm still going to as we get down the line in developing this game, I'm going to argue against that. But assuming that we're looking at the traditional format, what are the things in place that make all of those questions of optionality?
Matthew:Do we as a group feature slaves? Do I as a player generating a character with some sort of random catch generation? Can I avoid being a slave if that's not the story that I want to explore? The floor is yours, Dave. Convince me that this can work.
Dave:Yeah. Absolutely. So there's a there's a there's a key element in the in the character generation system that I've created. So there is definitely a life path element to it, because I do want that kind of randomness. Mhmm.
Dave:But it has to be
Matthew:life paths.
Dave:We love life paths. But it has to be slightly tempered randomness, in this case for a couple of reasons, actually, not just for managing the the the kind of the issue of of slavery in the game. But I think the key thing is that when you're when you're when you're come together as a group and you're creating your your playing group, we're now kind of focused on a group concept and that the primary group concept for the game would be the the noble household or the aristocratic household. And that would include, obviously, members of the household who are, you know, either the the pata familias or the the matriarch, the mata familias, or other people who are related, but also it would include the servants and the other people around them, you know, friends and that who are loyal to that to that to that family. In that, there's got to be a discussion within the group about who's gonna play what and what they want to play.
Dave:Now go back to the history, you would have had slaves in that setup. Mhmm. The way I've got it cast at the moment is that you can that, you know, there is a an option on the table for for for Rowling to be somebody in slavery, to be a slave, but that option is slavery or freed. So when you roll that option, you can decide, well, I don't wanna play a slave. Or if the group has decided we don't want to be looking at that angle of the game of of the history so closely, you then just choose to be a a free person who's a servant rather than a person who's in bondage.
Dave:And that does change the dynamic a bit. I mean, there are still, again, going back to the history, there's still a lot of, you know, a a servant of a, a Roman noble family is very much tied to that family in the way that not in not exactly the same way, but there's a lot of the same obligations and expectations that you would have as a servant, as would be imposed upon you if you're a slave. So there's a lot
Matthew:Well, I was even wondering from listening to what you just said there. It were there actually, if you like, paid servants who were distinct from slaves?
Dave:Or
Matthew:Yes. Is there Absolutely. Or were they simply slaves with pocket money?
Dave:No. No. They were definitely paid servants. Absolutely. And actually, quite a lot of the slaves got paid.
Matthew:Yeah. Again, I mean in your essay, as it were.
Dave:Yeah. I mean, the point I the point I make in the essay is about the pyramidal, like, structure. And actually, if you're at the top of that pyramid and you're a household slave, you're in a much, much better position than if you're in the bottom of that pyramid and you are working in the mines or the fields. So, and that's, you know, that's just a recognition of the way system worked back in the day. But in our case, we are looking very much at the top of that pyramid.
Matthew:Anyway, There's not much fun in role playing working in the fields or the mines.
Dave:No. No.
Matthew:Exactly. Says says us just about to produce a gold mining supplement for a role playing game. But that's that's by the by.
Dave:Yeah. But then in that in that case, it wasn't slavery
Matthew:in the
Dave:forties and fifties. California is a really interesting story that we've talked about before. Maybe not on the podcast. But it's not like there are thousands of slaves bust in to to do all the mining.
Matthew:Yeah. Yeah.
Dave:So it's a slightly different different different take on it. So so yeah. So the the point I'm making there is that if you wanna just roll it by the dice and you are, as a group, are content to have that dynamic in your game, which you should discuss at your session zero and agree amongst you, then yes. Great. Go with that.
Dave:Because, again, I think there are there are stories that would be really good to tell of, I think, as I said in the piece, of somebody who's fallen into slavery. Fallen fallen in, perhaps the wrong way of putting it. Has been taken into slavery, but who then is able to work their way out of it. Find a way out of it. So I think that's Or
Matthew:who, you know, if if they're reasonably high ranking slave, may be entirely content be family, if you like, a family member that way. Yes. They get all their privilege of serving that particular family with all its privileges Yeah. As it
Dave:mean, there's an interesting dynamic. So if you were if you were a what they call a dispensator, which is a like a a senior a senior role, you're you're it's like a like a steward or a secretary to the pata familias, as you would normally either that or the mata familias. When you were even if you were a slave, when you were out and about on the paterfamilias' business, you had, like, the protection of their name and their clout. So you would you would be treated very differently than if you didn't have that protection of that. Now again, I can completely hear myself and I can hear people listening to this going Yeah, but blum and hell, you know, you're talking about the protection of somebody else for this poor person.
Dave:Which is absolutely true. But again, it's just trying to get to that to the history and understand the history and uncover a bit of that history for people playing the game who might not know the history as well as we do, whilst not encouraging them to revel in the bad bits and and, you know, to do stuff in game that that is is focusing on, you know, the really bad side of of Roman slavery, rather than using it as a vehicle to understand it a little bit and try and play some interesting stories around it. Yeah. I think there were there were two things I was gonna say, weren't there? So so the first one is that choice thing.
Dave:I'm trying to remember what the second one was now. I might have wrapped it up in all of that as well. So in terms of the mechanics so I mean, there is there is there isn't like a you know, there isn't an archetype of slave. Right. Yeah.
Dave:Yeah. There isn't, you know, in the same way that we didn't have an archetype of Native American, because that that is setting a stereotype we can
Matthew:That's reductive. Precisely.
Dave:Yeah. It's it's a setting a stereotype we do not want to set. And it's it's, like I say, it's reductive and it's regressive and it's not good.
Matthew:The option is What we should you have actually put a copy of this on the Discord, haven't you? So a lot of our Discord members can have a look at the, you know, this draft. We should do that for our, at least for our stationary members and above on the on the wider because not everybody's a member of the discord. We should do that on the wider Patreon as well. Yeah.
Matthew:Gonna have a look at what you've done.
Dave:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So what what I've put up so far is it's about a 100 pages worth of rules and content and stuff, including a life path, including the advice around how you should do a session zero, or at least some advice anyway, and how you would create your group. So the other point I was going to make, you know, because you're talking about effectively group concepts and playing a group of legionaries or playing a group of Yeah.
Dave:Household women who are influencing things from behind the scenes and all that. And again, I think the the the game as I'm trying to set it up should play into those group, those group concepts just as well as going into the group concept that I've already described about the the, you know, the the noble household. I think the focus for me anyway is gonna be the noble household, but there's absolutely no reason why, we can't have group concepts which would be playing, I think, you know, a group of women who, you know, again, in the Roman history, you know, women didn't have, you know, a lot of agency. You know, some of them did get quite a lot of agency. There were some rules around, inheritance and stuff, which meant that some women became independent and could do, you know, and would be independent businesswomen and do their stuff.
Dave:But that's, you know, probably the the exception rather than the rule. But then playing a bunch of a group of women who are then, you know, manipulating the other people in the world, the other men in the world, in order to get whatever outcome they're looking for, is I think a really interesting a really interesting game to play. So I'd very much like to have that kind of group concept, you know, in there. And if, you know, if you wanted to play just a group of gladiators, you know, and you wanted to do, you know, a lot of fighting, fine. Let's do that.
Dave:You wanna play a bunch of legionaries, you can do that.
Matthew:Now here's the thing, though. Here's a question. All the gladiators are slaves, though, aren't they?
Dave:No. But the vast majority are. Some gladiators did choose to do that, but it was the majority were slaves. So there's the the the period we're looking at, the gladiator gladiatorial what's the right word for it? Not, you know, like the gladiatorial event activity was not as developed as it was in as you see in films like Gladiator and stuff.
Dave:During the during the Republic, it was it started out very much as a a funeral kind of rite where though you would have, like, these martial games to to honor someone who has died and was being buried. And then it moved on from then. It grew and it grew and it grew. I think for the game that we've got, I'm probably gonna fiddle with that a little bit. In the in the in the Republican time, there were not so many gladiatorial styles, so I'm gonna bring up a style or two from later in the period, because I think they're just fun.
Dave:But, yes, I mean, you're right. You're right. The the majority of them were slaves. That is that is definitely true.
Matthew:Right. Much to think on there. Much to think on, but I have run out of time for thinking, Dave.
Dave:Yeah. There is and I I you know, there is so much to discuss and to try and get right with this for ancient Rome, generally, not just on the slavery point Yeah. That I am putting you know, have been putting a lot of effort and a lot of thought into it. Again, as with Tales of the Old West, hopefully we'll get the balance right, and it'll it'll it'll it'll land in the right way, the way that that we want it to. So a game that doesn't glorify in any of that badness, but actually creates an environment where people can play the game and learn a bit about it and have fun at the same time.
Matthew:Cool. What are we doing next week? Another one episode, I should say.
Dave:You're reporting from tabletop Scotland, aren't you?
Matthew:Yes. I guess I am. So next week, I will be at Tabletop Scotland. And the week after, I will be recording a well, maybe during the day. Anyway, in a couple of weeks' there will be a report from Tabletop Scotland.
Matthew:But the unforeseen
Dave:other stuff.
Matthew:Yeah. And some other stuff. And I think at some point, we ought to get the lads from from Free League back into the recording into the Herman and talk a bit about their life. It's a long time since you spoke to them, it feels to me.
Dave:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
Matthew:I'm not promising that for two weeks' time, but that will be a future thing.
Dave:Let's do that in the in the not too distant. Yeah.
Matthew:In the meantime, it is goodbye from me.
Dave:And it's goodbye from him.
Matthew:And may the icons bless your adventures.