Matthew: 00:39

Hello, and welcome to episode 265 of Effect, Partners. I'm Matthew.

Dave: 00:48

And I'm Dave. And as usual, we are bringing you a a jam packed show today.

Matthew: 00:54

It's not so jam packed.

Dave: 00:55

No. It's not. Know. But we have to say that, don't we? Although we did talk about last time changing up changing up the beginning of our of our podcast, didn't we?

Dave: 01:02

So we've completely failed to do that in the last two weeks. So

Matthew: 01:06

We have not failed. You. You. You have failed.

Dave: 01:09

Okay. Let's try. Welcome to the show. It's gonna be short and shit, and you won't have to worry about listening to it for too long.

Dave: 01:14

Excellent. So we've we've got our usual world of gaming, a few things to talk about there. Table top

Matthew: 01:21

Well, we haven't got our usual I mean, that's that's where it's not jam packed. We've only got three things to talk about.

Dave: 01:25

But we still have our usual

Matthew: 01:28

Yeah. Yeah.

Dave: 01:31

We haven't got an official news from the West thing, but there's a couple of things we might just riffle a

Matthew: 01:38

little bit. If there were a couple of things we might talk about, then we would put a News From The West section in. You're ruining this, Dave. You're absolutely No. The script's in front of you.

Dave: 01:47

No. No. No. I'm doing a new approach that we talked about last time, because our old approach must get very boring after while.

Matthew: 01:54

Okay. Right. Yeah.

Dave: 01:55

And then we have a

Matthew: 01:56

Be good if you did the right approach, whatever that is.

Dave: 01:59

Well, when you worked out what the right approach is, let me know. Okay? And then we'll do that.

Matthew: 02:03

I will. I'll I'll I'll demonstrate it in two weeks time.

Dave: 02:07

Maybe. Maybe. We'll see. I shall I shall watch with with with eager anticipation for that one.

Matthew: 02:14

Anyway, what's happening after a while of gaming? Come on. This is taking ages.

Dave: 02:19

So, yeah, so the feature today, last time we talked about making non player characters in Tales of the Old West. So I've done a little bit on that, and you can hear that later on. And I am assuming Matthew will slang it off as usual.

Matthew: 02:35

And then we'll talk about what we're doing next week and or in a couple of weeks time and say goodbye.

Dave: 02:40

There you go. That's that's that's that's the episode in a nutshell.

Matthew: 02:44

There's the episode in a nutshell. So if you don't wanna listen, you know

Dave: 02:48

Well, I don't know why don't know why you're listening if you don't want to listen, but but thank you for listening. So so this brings us smoothly on to the bit where we thank our patrons. So thank you to all our listeners who listen to us and draw some kind of, I don't know, value from from our musings. But obviously, you to all our patrons. We don't have any new ones this week to to say thank you to, but thank you to everybody who supports us.

Matthew: 03:15

Thank you. Without you, we wouldn't be able to do this stuff. It's true.

Dave: 03:20

That is very true.

Matthew: 03:21

So we're moving on straight away to the world of gaming, Dave.

Dave: 03:26

We are. What have we got in the world of gaming, Matthew?

Matthew: 03:30

Well, the free license for Coriolis The Great Dark has been released. You can now make whatever you want for Coriolis The Great Dark, and slap a supplement for Correo The Great Dark on it. And there's a little logo they've created. And you can sell it. We will put a link in the show notes to the page where that license is on the Free League website, and you can read the actual license for yourself.

Matthew: 04:00

But, yeah, you can make Coriolis the great dark materials. Cool. Dark materials. You see what I did there? That was totally unintentional.

Dave: 04:09

Yeah. It was it wasn't yeah. It wasn't very clever either, really. But, yeah, so that's cool. Now what's the situation with the Coriolis, the third horizon?

Dave: 04:22

Is there is there a license for that? Because I thought there was.

Matthew: 04:27

There was going to be. Definitely. Now interestingly, there were two versions of this press release. The first one came out, I think, to us backers. And it said, and in fact, I almost wanna dig it out, but I'm I'm not gonna waste time digging it out.

Matthew: 04:46

It said something along the lines of, note this this isn't for the great for Third Horizon, but you can still make a do sell your Third Horizon stuff via our affiliate, you know, our community content program on drive through, which is not the same as a free license. No. For a start, they get 50%. Whereas in anything else that you you produce here, you you don't have to give freely a cut of anything. So with make under your Coriolis Great Dark Glasses.

Dave: 05:21

So with the license for yeah. For the Great Dark and for Dragonbane, are these ones that you can then sell those products anywhere? Or are you still expected to sell them on the workshop?

Matthew: 05:32

No. No. You can sell them anywhere. Okay. And, you know, you can you can make physical products.

Matthew: 05:37

You can sell them. We could, now that we've got an actual, you know, storefront on 36 oh, no. 365. It's not what I mean. Sorry.

Matthew: 05:45

That's my work.

Dave: 05:46

Drive. Drive thru. Yeah.

Matthew: 05:48

On drive thru, you know, we we could we could sell new Coriolis of Great Dark or Dragonbane product on our store. The Fett branding, where we take most of the money, except for the cut that we give to Drive thru RPG or, you know, just like we've published Tales of the Old West, we can make physical copies and sell them and keep all the money apart from what we've spent on

Dave: 06:14

On making it in the first place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Dave: 06:18

Well, that's cool. And very cool that the dark great dark has has got this license. My But

Matthew: 06:27

what you really wanted was you wanted Third Horizon, didn't you?

Dave: 06:29

Well, my question is, where is the Third Horizon license?

Matthew: 06:32

So, as I said, they did two versions of this press release. And the first one just said, there it is. Community content. You know, lap it up. Yep.

Matthew: 06:42

And I imagine I was, in myself, in my heart of hearts, a little bit pissed off with this. But I didn't say anything, not even on the Discord community. I wasn't gonna rant on about it. But I think some people did, because then a more public press release was launched, which says and I've quoted it, in fact, on the, on our Discord. So I'll be able to quote exactly what it says.

Matthew: 07:09

And that one said, at this point, the new license only covers Coriolis The Great Dark, not the previous edition, The Third Horizon. So that does hold out, not quite a promise, but a possibility that a Third Horizon license is coming later.

Dave: 07:29

It makes me wonder what the reason is for not doing that now.

Matthew: 07:35

I I can think of a very strong this is not this is not any inside knowledge. I, though, because we're just putting our license together for the Wild West, the Tales of the Old West one. I can think of a very strong reason why you might want to do that if you released a new game. You've got two versions of Coriolis, let's say. Very different games, but you've got, you know, if you like a new edition and an old edition, you want people to move to the new edition and get the new core book.

Matthew: 08:08

Mhmm. You want people producing content for the new rules, not giving people reasons to stick with the old rule set. So I think only when they feel they've got critical mass on Coriolis to Great Dark, you know, it's it's not publicly for sale yet. Well, is it publicly for sale? Can't remember.

Matthew: 08:33

You know, it it's, you know, people are getting their kick Kickstarter copies of it. We are gonna be selling it when we get to Tabletop Scotland. Yes. It has. It launched it

Dave: 08:42

it launched at GenCon, didn't it, officially? So Yeah.

Matthew: 08:45

So it is publicly for sale. Yeah. But, you know, that that's gonna be our new product. Yeah. They don't want to say you know, they don't wanna say or they don't want us, the Coriolis fan community, to say, well, yeah, that came out.

Dave: 09:01

But look

Matthew: 09:01

at all this fabulous new content for Coriolis and Third Horizon. Thank you very much for this license here. They wanna at least sell a few thousand copies of

Dave: 09:12

The Great

Matthew: 09:13

Great Dark before we do that. And the reason I say that is because, you know, one of the reasons why I want to do a license for Tales of the Old West, make it a free license like this, is that, you know, I don't care about getting our cut of whatever anybody produces. What I want is more people producing stuff for the Old West, which makes people buy the Old West core rule book. Yeah. And think, oh, you know, there's lots of there's lots of adventures we can have here.

Matthew: 09:40

More than you and I could possibly write.

Dave: 09:42

Yes. Or produce those Yeah.

Matthew: 09:44

That makes and that's

Dave: 09:45

that makes a lot of sense. I agree. That that that all does sound sound sensible.

Matthew: 09:50

So maybe it'll be a whole year or something like that, but, you know, they'll get a good sales run of Great Dark. Yeah. And then maybe they'll sneak out quite quietly a Third Horizon license.

Dave: 10:03

I mean, you can still do Third Horizon stuff through the through the through the workshop.

Matthew: 10:08

As they did say in their first one. Yeah. But you're giving them 50%.

Dave: 10:11

But Whereas

Matthew: 10:11

if you hold on. Yeah. You'll probably get the opportunity to keep all the all the money.

Dave: 10:15

Yeah.

Matthew: 10:16

Or the larger proportion.

Dave: 10:19

Yeah. Okay. That sounds that yeah. That that that makes sense. That is logical.

Matthew: 10:23

Now, as I say, you know, before I start quoting us verbatim, that's our conjecture. Yeah. Not necessarily being told by anybody at Free League.

Dave: 10:32

No. Not at all. And I mean, it's it's I think maybe it it it mark if this is true, it would mark a slight change in in Free League's approach, which I guess is totally understandable considering the size of of the company now, to a slightly more commercial driven view rather than a as as I think, you know, it might have been in the past, a we just want people to love the game here. Go and do what you want with it kind of point of view, which they might have had a few years ago. But I think that's Yeah.

Dave: 11:04

But it's entirely reasonable for them to that. I'm not criticizing them for that at all. Because, you know, they I I think, you know, it's it's it's been quite a a risk making The Great Dark the game that it is Yeah. Because it is so different from from the Third Horizon. Horizon.

Dave: 11:24

And Yeah.

Matthew: 11:25

And and for me, disappointingly different.

Dave: 11:29

I think disappointing or potentially disappointingly different for a lot of people, which I guess

Matthew: 11:34

Yeah. Exactly. And I think possibly they've felt that from the community.

Dave: 11:39

Yeah. Although, I mean, I said having having having looked at it in a bit more detail, not played it, but having read it, I mean, there's a lot to love in that game. It is

Matthew: 11:48

Well, absolutely. And having actually played it, at the time, I said, it's great, but the GM has to do a lot of work. Yeah. But then we discovered that the campaign appears to to offer the GM materials that that means actually the GM doesn't have to do the work that we were imagining Yeah. Or that that that Thomas did.

Matthew: 12:12

You know, Thomas himself, who's backed the campaign and, you know, got a PDF of it, says a lot of the stuff that he was having to make up is actually in the campaign. So Yes.

Dave: 12:22

Yeah.

Matthew: 12:23

So I think my advice will be get the campaign as well when it comes out.

Dave: 12:27

Yeah. I think we can we conjected on a on an earlier episode, didn't we, that maybe as they did with original Coriolis, they realized they had so much content, and that the book was gonna get too unwieldy. They decided to take some of that out and put it into the campaign as a separate product, which, again, entirely reasonable, I think, under the circumstances. Although, you know, it's I've got nothing against one way of putting it. I love the feel of the the original Coriolis book because it is so meaty.

Matthew: 12:56

So full of stuff. No. Exactly. But again

Dave: 13:00

I can I can understand commercially why making a book that dense, that big is, you know, is is not the best decision from a commercial point?

Matthew: 13:08

Also, I think there's an interesting thing there. Back then, this was a relatively new company. You and I well, you were a fan of them before me. But when you persuaded me to kick start that, I had no idea whether Free League was gonna survive another year.

Dave: 13:24

Yeah.

Matthew: 13:25

That's very true. What I loved about having that big 300 odd page, but I can't remember how many pages it's got in it. But, know, all that content, I didn't particularly care whether they survived and made new stuff because I knew there was enough in there to generate a whole bunch of adventures for for you and I.

Dave: 13:44

Three hundred and eight eighty four. 384.

Matthew: 13:48

Almost 400 pages. Look at that.

Dave: 13:50

It is it is such a big I'm still annoyed that I didn't pick up an ex a new copy when I had the chance.

Matthew: 13:58

Yeah. Because those 300 pages put a lot of strain on the on the spine.

Dave: 14:02

Because the book is a bit mean, it's my my book's in pretty good condition, but you can tell it's been well used. Yeah. And it would have been nice to have had a pristine copy of it, but there you go.

Matthew: 14:13

Oh, well. I have I have multiple copies of the new Coriolis. Yeah.

Dave: 14:19

So do I. More more

Matthew: 14:22

than more than I

Dave: 14:22

have, really. But yeah.

Matthew: 14:24

But, yes, I think I think it's important that we get the the campaign when it when it comes out, and I think that's taken a bit more time than they expected. I think they were hoping to release it at the same time, but it won't be out I don't think so. Campaign.

Dave: 14:53

I don't I don't think I wouldn't bet my house on there not being one, but I don't think so. I haven't I don't think I've saw one.

Matthew: 15:00

I'll have to look at the stock list, see what we're actually Well, yeah. I think it's just the core book. Yeah. I think it's just the core book. Which might be a nice segue.

Matthew: 15:08

Should we talk about Tabletop Scotland next as

Dave: 15:10

opposed to Go on then.

Matthew: 15:12

Let's see. So we talked about it two weeks ago. We're gonna be at Tabletop Scotland, but it's it's nearer now.

Dave: 15:18

It is. It's much nearer. It's next It

Matthew: 15:20

feels like it's gonna be a very busy week for you and I because

Dave: 15:23

It is.

Matthew: 15:24

I am going to Games Quest to pick up the Free League stock. So I've got to pack the car with with actually, you and I maybe need to exchange messages on what we think each of us has got and what we think each of us is bringing. Yeah. I'll be everything needed, I think, for the Old West for the effect podcasting no. Sorry.

Matthew: 15:48

Effect publishing stand with all our Old West themed sales paraphernalia and a very small bit of stock that we have left over from UK Games Expo. Yeah. But the rest of our Old West stock is getting delivered by GMS, who are also gonna be selling at games at tabletop Scotland.

Dave: 16:12

They won't be selling it.

Matthew: 16:13

They'll they'll

Dave: 16:14

they'll be exhibiting it because they are.

Matthew: 16:16

No. No. Sorry. They are selling stuff. They're they're they've got a market.

Matthew: 16:19

So which is why they are selling our stuff with them.

Dave: 16:22

Yeah. They're not selling to us the Old West. Yeah.

Matthew: 16:24

Yeah. I know. No. We we are we are the only places you the only stand you can buy it from at Tabletop Scotland. Yep.

Matthew: 16:32

That I'm aware of, at least. I don't know whether maybe the guys from Blackboard who bought a big stock will be selling

Dave: 16:37

it too. You never know. There might be another copy floating around Yeah.

Matthew: 16:41

Yeah. Anyway, so we so Games Quest aren't going to be at Tabletop Scotland, so they can't deliver the stock for well, I mean, guess they can, but it would be very expensive to Free Yeah. So I volunteered that we could take Free League stock up in the back of my car. So I've got to pick that up on Tuesday. Then I'm in the office on Wednesday at my day job.

Matthew: 17:06

But then on Wednesday, I'm gonna drive to your place, and and then we can kick off early on the Thursday Yeah. To spend the day driving to Scotland.

Dave: 17:15

Yes. Indeed.

Matthew: 17:18

Yes. And then setting up on Friday morning at Edinburgh and Sulling in the afternoon or from late morning onwards

Dave: 17:27

Yeah.

Matthew: 17:27

For three days. Indeed.

Dave: 17:30

And then the long drive back on the Monday. Yeah. So yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be a bit of a long weekend. Yeah, so again, you know, for me, I've got, you know, the things to do. I'm still I'm still going through the final processes of of getting this job I've got organized.

Dave: 17:46

So I haven't got a start date for that yet, but it potentially Yeah.

Matthew: 17:49

I've now got a

Dave: 17:50

Do my reference. Yeah. It's I'm

Matthew: 17:53

gonna do your references. Yeah.

Dave: 17:54

Potentially gonna be the week after, like possibly the Wednesday after Tabletop Scotland.

Matthew: 18:00

Oh, crikey. Yeah.

Dave: 18:01

And then I yeah. Well, it might be later than that now because there were a couple of things, but that was sort of what they were looking at. And then, very annoyingly, tabletop Scotland has for this year and last year, coincided with the opening weekend of the NFL regular season. So it's very annoying. So I'm not gonna get to watch the opening match on Thursday night on Friday, and I'm gonna have to record stuff and not see the results on Sunday so I can then maybe watch some on Monday when I get home.

Dave: 18:33

That's bloody annoying.

Matthew: 18:35

Okay. So just just tell me about the logistics of this. So Thursday night is the opening match. Which two NFL teams are playing? It'll be nothing to most of our audience.

Matthew: 18:45

But a good third of our audience come from America, so I don't know what

Dave: 18:48

we're talking about. Dallas Cowboys are playing at the Super Bowl champions, the Philadelphia Eagles for the opening match on Thursday evening US time. So that's kind of midnight.

Matthew: 19:00

Sense of continuity there.

Dave: 19:02

Kind of

Matthew: 19:02

like that. Yeah.

Dave: 19:03

Midnight midnight from for The UK time, thereabouts. So I probably wouldn't have watched much of it, but I would have recorded it and watched it on Friday if I hadn't been going to Scotland.

Matthew: 19:12

But but surely, you can sit in bed at the you know, we we will have arrived. We will have eaten.

Dave: 19:18

Well, if we have if we have

Matthew: 19:20

and watch it.

Dave: 19:20

If we have Sky Sports at the hotel, then, yeah, potentially.

Matthew: 19:24

Oh, you can't see it? Yeah. It's it's not an online thing, I think.

Dave: 19:28

No. Sky Sports. So I mean and the other thing, as a as a total digression, I'm not even talking about tabletop gaming here. It was only yesterday or the day before that Sky confirmed their contract for the NFL this year. So I was

Matthew: 19:42

Oh, crikey. So you might not even have been on that.

Dave: 19:44

No. Exactly. So I was looking at a situation where I might have had to find find another way of watching watching it, which is, you know, I love American football. I mean, it is it is my favorite sport, and I love a lot of sports. And it was it was it it did actually worry me, you know, when it was like, we don't have a contract for Sky.

Dave: 20:05

It's not on their schedule. What the hell is going on here? But all that's sorted out now, thankfully. And Sky coverage is very, very good. So yeah.

Dave: 20:13

So that's all cool. Anyway, slight digression digression over.

Matthew: 20:16

Right. And we will

Dave: 20:17

put then then

Matthew: 20:18

There's show notes.

Dave: 20:19

So the rest the rest of the games for the first week are then played on Sunday. Yeah. And then

Matthew: 20:24

working then.

Dave: 20:25

And then there's one on Monday evening as well. So Thursday night, Sunday, and Monday evening are the days where they they play regular season games.

Matthew: 20:33

And, of course, the other little event is is your birthday on the Sunday as well.

Dave: 20:38

It is. I know. Like it was Maybe last

Matthew: 20:41

we should announce to all the visitors to Tabletop Scotland that they should bring Dave a birthday card or even better, present on Sunday.

Dave: 20:52

Sounds like Two. Yeah.

Matthew: 20:53

The three D Stand. Otherwise, we won't sell you anything.

Dave: 20:57

So yeah. So for those of you who are coming to Tabletop Scotland, we are on Stands D 104 and D 106. We're next to each other. So if you find one of us, you'll find the other one. And yeah, come and find us.

Dave: 21:13

Come and say hello. It's as I said, with with all of these things, the the the most fun thing about conventions is running into all those people that I don't otherwise run into during the year. So come along come along say hello. It should be it should be good good convention. Was a good convention last year.

Dave: 21:29

Quite quite small. I don't know how much bigger it'll be this year. Not not a lot I suspect, but it's a good convention. And they've got a lovely place for a lovely space for playing games. Beautiful sort of wide balcony, which is really, really nice.

Dave: 21:46

So, yeah, if you're if you're if you're thinking about coming along, make that decision. Come along and say hello, and have a great time at the convention.

Matthew: 21:54

Tickets are available. We'll put links in the show notes.

Dave: 21:56

Cool.

Matthew: 21:59

So the final bit of news is Anders has got a Kickstarter out now. I'm not saying Anders. What what what what's her name? Nordic Skalds is

Dave: 22:10

the company. Andreas.

Matthew: 22:11

Andreas. Yeah.

Dave: 22:12

Andreas Lundstrom. Yeah.

Matthew: 22:16

And they've got the sequel, the second part, I should say, of the Horn of Dawn campaign, which is Windheim Fallen, and it's on Kickstarter now.

Dave: 22:28

Windfalling. Falling. Yeah.

Matthew: 22:30

Right.

Dave: 22:30

Yeah. It's been up for a few days. They're doing alright. They've already made their money. But yeah.

Dave: 22:36

So we are thinking about we might have a little chat with him at some point over the next couple of weeks and hear all about it.

Matthew: 22:43

Yes. Yes. If we could get that done around Table Talk Scotland, then we may have Andreas on this very podcast in two weeks' time.

Dave: 22:54

So should we

Matthew: 22:55

say no? We'll put a link in the show notes, obviously. So if you wanna back it now, then Yeah. Back it.

Dave: 23:01

At the point

Matthew: 23:01

of recording interesting thing I noticed on the Kickstarter is this is more sandbox y than the first version because what you did in the first version will be changing what might happen in this second half, which I like to hear.

Dave: 23:15

Yeah. No. Absolutely. And that does bring that does bring its own challenges very much, I've just been I've been spending some time over the last week or so trying to put together the the campaign for the gold country. And and again, making that sandbox y enough or making that structured enough whilst leaving it with enough sandbox element is is a challenge with making these kind of campaign frameworks.

Dave: 23:43

So Yeah. I'll be interested to see how they do it. So, yeah, obviously, Nordic schools are a good outfit. They won a bunch of awards for Windheim in the first place, including the Fenix award. So they are they are very well regarded.

Dave: 23:58

So if you haven't seen Windheim originally, and you're tempted by this. It's a Dragonbane, obviously, a Dragonbane

Matthew: 24:08

Supplement campaign.

Dave: 24:09

Supplement campaign world. So it's, know, it's a it's a it's a whole new world for for Dragonbane. Go and take a look at it. There are twenty five days at the point of recording left on the Kickstarter. So by the time we've spoken to, Andreas, assuming we can get him on board for next time, there'll still be a good ten days left.

Dave: 24:30

So you can have a listen to him, in a couple of weeks, and still have time to back it if you are tempted.

Matthew: 24:35

Right. So that's a world of gaming over. Cool. Shall we talk about non player characters or Game Master characters characters in Tales of the Old West.

Dave: 24:49

I've created quite a lot of non player characters, NPCs, or as Matthew will call them, game master characters, GMCs, for Tales of the Old West. I've run a hell of a lot of playtests, wrote the scenarios in the quick draw and the core book, designed the campaign, and wrote the actual play scenarios that became the campfire tales. Of course, I've written a lot of NPCs for other games too, Most notably, for the campaigns I created for Alien RPG, Dreams and Machines, Mythic Battles, Ragnarok, and War Stories. Now you may well be thinking, bully for you. It's not as if you're the only one who's ever created an NPC, and that is very true.

Dave: 25:31

So as I always say, this is my take on the subject, and you should feel at liberty to take or reject what I'm saying based on what works for you. The first thing I want to explore is the question of why does an RPG need NPCs and what purpose do they serve? Based on those answers, we can talk about how we should approach creating them. Now, there's a very obvious answer. A role playing game is telling a story, and stories need characters to bring them to life.

Dave: 26:02

Hence, the need for an NPC. But there is a deeper need or opportunity for these characters, and they serve a much more important function than just populating a story. They can be used to bring a specific challenge to the players, thus encouraging the players to consider a variety of means of overcoming the challenge they represent. And they can be used to bring the mechanics of the game to life, But at the very least, they must serve the purpose of populating the game with believable and relatable antagonists. They get the players invested in dealing with them, opposing them, turning them from enemies into friends, running them out of town, or ultimately even killing them.

Dave: 26:44

And of course, not just antagonists. There is great power in creating NPCs that may ally with the player characters, or who may evoke feelings of love, concern, or charity in the players, or frustration, dislike, or irritation, even if the NPC isn't an enemy. But in this sense, every NPC you create must offer something, some hook or opportunity for your players to engage with. NPCs can be statistically complex, with many abilities that bring out the mechanics of the game, and narratively complex, with detailed histories and complex wants, needs, and motivations. But they don't always have to have both.

Dave: 27:27

The way you approach creating your NPC should be driven by your style of GMing and the game you're going to play. At one end of the scale, you have the detailed NPC with intricate powers and abilities and hidden or difficult to exploit weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Their role is often that of the final boss, the climactic battle that presents the complex tactical challenge that the players need to marshal their abilities and their mastery of the game's mechanics to overcome. Think games like D and D and other combat centric games where winning the big boss fight is the core objective. At the other end of the scale, you have NPCs with fewer statistical details but detailed histories.

Dave: 28:12

This is often the case in a more narrative based game where conflict doesn't rely on or even expect detailed tactical combat, where a violent conflict might be very short and sharp and deadly. A great example of this kind of game is The Walking Dead where NPC skills are generalized into categories like trained or expert so a GM doesn't have to track too many statistics that might get in the way of the storytelling. So let's apply these considerations to tales of the Old West. As I said earlier, this is my approach so let's start with that. I like characters with depth and backstory, and thus my default is to be lighter on statistics and as heavy as I can be in the space available on NPC history and motivations.

Dave: 29:01

You'll notice in the NPC descriptions in the core book, we highlight NPC wants, needs, fears, and so on to draw these to the GM's attention. Obviously, if I'm writing an NPC for a published scenario, then I will flesh them out with attributes and abilities, and interesting combinations of talents. I tend to keep the NPCs quite simple though, with perhaps one or two key things they're good at. This could be a few gunslinging talents, or the skills to escape pursuit. Or maybe I'd throw together a few talents that make them hard to deal with or particularly charming.

Dave: 29:39

I also think about what gear and weapons they might have to help them. But when I'm GM ing a game, I'm more than happy to adapt and amend an NPC's abilities and talents on the fly, if the original NPC is too weak or way too overpowered, and the scene would be more fun if I tweak them. Standard NPCs would not get talents, but they can still be very effective with the right gear and a lucky roll or two. But unlike D and D say, no NPC in Tales of the Old West is ever that much more powerful than any other character. Yes they may be great with the gun or they may have the presence and authority to always get their way, but defeating them can be as easy as one well placed or lucky shot or getting the right people to turn against them.

Dave: 30:27

So there have to be different consequences for taking them on than just the risk of being killed in a boss fight. The ramifications of taking on a powerful NPC might be political, they might be economic, or they might be that you and yours are harassed off your land or intimidated out of town. What I'm saying is that Tales of the Old West isn't about fighting through the minions of the big bad guy before you have a final showdown in his lair. It's more subtle than that. A powerful NPC boss will have a network of NPC allies and friends, and an NPC posse of gunhands and minions to serve their interests.

Dave: 31:05

But while this landscape of non player characters is there to protect the key antagonists, they also create opportunities for the PCs to oppose the NPC through less violent or even nonviolent means. And at the end of the day, gunning down your rival doesn't leave you rolling around in their riches and carrying off their loot. It leaves you at the mercy of vengeful friends and the long arm of the law. I'm going to wrap up this conversation with a quick run through of the stages any GM might go through to create a new NPC. First, you will identify the need for an NPC to fill a particular role in the game.

Dave: 31:45

They may be a key antagonist or perhaps an antagonist's allies and henchmen. They might be an important character in the story, but who is not an enemy, but whose actions and or fate is key to the story. They might even be unimportant to the current story, but they fill a gap in the environment or the world that helps flesh out the context for the players and gives loads of adventure opportunities to the GM. The best example in the core book is the NPC folks in the towns, all laid out to give the GM a canvas to draw their stories from. Secondly, you will have a good idea of how this NPC will interact with the player characters.

Dave: 32:26

Will they fight them, face them down with their personality, persuade them with their charms, or act against them in secret? Your answer may well be all of the above, but you may want to focus on a specific scene that will dictate the NPC's strengths and weaknesses. You can now build the NPC's attributes and abilities to make that scene as exciting and challenging as you like. Bear in mind the deadliness of the game, so I'd advise against making your average NPC too skilled with a gun or knife. Third, you should look at the NPC from their own perspective.

Dave: 33:00

Who are they? Where did they come from? What is their family situation? What do they do? What past events have made them into the person they are today?

Dave: 33:11

Feel free to use the life path tables in the core book to help you out if you need any inspiration, but this is your chance to note a few comments against the following points for your NPC. What do they need? This should be something critical or pivotal to their lives, prosperity, or at least what the NPC thinks is critical to their welfare. What do they want? This can be subtly different from the first point as a want is different from a need.

Dave: 33:38

What are their hopes? What do they own or control? What do they fear? And how far are they prepared to go to defend what they see as their rights? This leads directly into the fourth stage, identifying your NPC's motivations.

Dave: 33:57

Once you understand their motivations, you should always use them as your yardstick to determine how that NPC will behave or react in different situations. Remember that these characters, to be really believable to your players, must behave like real people. Very rarely would they want to fight to the death in a situation where there would be the chance to surrender or perhaps find another solution. If you get the NPC's motivations right and have them behave like thinking people, you are well on your way to creating a great NPC. The fifth and final stage I want to mention is linked to the above, and that is the immediate personal circumstances of the NPC and those he or she cares about.

Dave: 34:39

Herodotus once wrote, circumstances rule men. Men do not rule circumstances. And this applies to non player characters as well as PCs. Your NPC does not act in isolation, so take some time to consider the circumstances that surround them and how they impact their wants, needs and motivations. In many, if not most cases for a key NPC, these circumstances will have an impact upon the player characters too.

Dave: 35:08

As I said, these are all my thoughts on NPC creation in Tales of the Old West, and I have created many NPCs. It's up to you to decide if my approach has produced any great ones.

Matthew: 35:23

Okay, I'm Now, normally, when one of us does one of these things, the other one compliments them on a job well done. Not the case this time. This case, I feel you have failed to complete the brief.

Dave: 35:41

Okay. Go on then.

Matthew: 35:43

And you expressly say that you're not going to complete the brief in it as well. So this yeah. This is all great content. And, yes, this is the way you should build non player characters and, you know, guide people, guide GMs into how those non player characters should do. And, you know, we talked about how sandbox y tales of the Old West is anyway, and, you know, that's they all fit in.

Matthew: 36:06

All fit lovely. I can't argue with anything you said. What I can well, with one thing you said. But what I can argue with is what you didn't say.

Dave: 36:18

Okay. Have we have we had a miscommunication over the brief? Because I

Matthew: 36:22

Well, so what I was expecting is

Dave: 36:25

What were you expecting? How

Matthew: 36:26

okay. Let let me explain the problem from my point of view. If you and I will quite happily run Tales of the Old West and and build characters in that. But I'm thinking people out there who are new to Tales of the Old West might be going, okay. But if I'm not keeping track of GM characters or non player characters faith.

Matthew: 37:02

I'm not necessarily getting them to roll trouble, because that all complicates the game there. So, they are generally going to be rolling, over the scheme of things, fewer dice than the players are, which means they are essentially weaker than all the player characters. What sort of stats should I give them? What sort of, abilities and attributes should I be giving them to kind of make up the difference? You said, oh, you know, I kinda fudge those rolls anyway.

Matthew: 37:34

If if it's too easy, I add dice to the pool, and if it's too difficult, I take that away. Well, for a start, people are gonna maybe get really irritated with that, because that's not necessarily fair. But also, okay, adding to the pool, take away from the pool, but what do you start with? Do you just roll them up as normal characters, but you don't do faith pushes and and things?

Dave: 37:59

So so I I and I create them as characters, and they obviously have they have their stats and they have their skill relevant abilities. But I'm normally quite cautious on making a character that is, let's say, a a Clint Eastwood, you know, a Wild Bill Hickok kind of thing. Because and I and I mentioned it in in the in the piece, because it's very, very easy for one lucky role, for even a very low powered character to kill another character. Just outright kill them. And if you my my fear so so the the the comparison I was trying to make between a highly statted NPC, think some kind of boss in D and D, against Mhmm.

Dave: 38:45

A character in terms of the Old West, is that in D and D, you know, your characters struggle to die at the best of times. You are Yes. You are expected to get whacked for 20 hit points or more, you know, on every attack, but you've got a 100. Yeah. You've got all your magic and everything to to restore your hit points.

Dave: 39:04

You've got your Clerics stood behind you, casting cure wounds, and all the rest of it. So that fight is is very different. You're expected to take a long time over that fight. You're expected to manipulate is the wrong word. To to understand the mechanics of the game and how your abilities work in a way that would give you a tactical advantage over that boss in what is going to be a very long boss fight.

Dave: 39:27

Yeah. And you're never gonna get one shotted by that boss. You know, there there is no risk of that whatsoever. Come to your tales of the old Wales West Coast.

Matthew: 39:34

I don't know. Sometimes, with a fireball.

Dave: 39:36

But anyway Pretty pretty unlikely, though. Pretty unlikely. And often, if you do get one shotted, your your your priest will just resurrect you at some later point anyway. So actually, death is not such an issue. In terms of your West, death is a real issue.

Dave: 39:50

You know, as you saw with with Tony's character, William Harleston, was kill shot and killed with one shot from what was effectively a mook NPC. You know, this was a weak NPC. He had no talents. You know, he had a decent dice. Probably probably had seven dice or something with his gun bonus.

Matthew: 40:09

Okay.

Dave: 40:09

And so suddenly, you're you're in the realm of of of of can't can't think of the right word. Of of frequently killing off your player characters even with low level low level NPCs. So my my my point there is to to new GMs is to be careful about starting up a really cool gunslinger with, you know, lots of talents that make them you know, can take away their called shot negative, can take away you know, give them bonus dice and other stuff. Because what you're doing is creating a character who will kill one of your player characters. And so that that's my that's my point there, that you just need to be cautious about not making a kind of D and D style final boss who is gonna end up one shotting more than one of your player characters in a in a final scene.

Dave: 41:02

Because it's so dangerous. Because even a 12 year old child who's never used a gun picks up a gun and points it at you might kill you. So that's that's my that's my where my caution advice comes in. Okay. Okay.

Dave: 41:15

Just just to just to answer the point about fudging. So, I I don't fudge the roles in in Tales of the Old West. That's something I don't do. But what what I would do is if there is a you know, if I've got a group of NPCs and they are clearly outclassed, then I might give, you know, give one of them, oh, he's got a Lord Dog holster actually, so he'll get an extra die on his draw. Or he's using, a gun with a slightly better bonus than you know?

Dave: 41:47

Because what you don't do is say to your players, ah, here are four men. He is he's carrying a Colt 45 in a standard In

Matthew: 41:56

a in a local Colt store.

Dave: 41:57

Yeah. So you don't you don't do all that. So all that stuff is there to be as a GM is there to be modified. Yeah. If if, yeah.

Dave: 42:07

If if it's looking like it's gonna be a really boring out, you know, boring outcome, then I might, you know, make a make an NPC slightly better than I'd written them to be. Like in some games, you might introduce reinforcements or or, you know, something like that. Or if if the if I'm suddenly thinking, alright, this guy is gonna one shot. I've made him too powerful, and he's likely to one shot a couple of characters, and that's not gonna be any fun. I might just make him a little bit less good at his his gun skill, his shooting skill, and take a couple of dice off.

Dave: 42:40

But then I'd roll the dice in the open so everyone could see what what the outcome is. So that's kind where I'm coming from with those comments.

Matthew: 42:49

Okay then. I'm still gonna challenge you because I think people would like to know what sort of range we're talking about. So you mentioned earlier on and this I'll admit this may be just that you're you're remembering, but it may also be, on average, generally, my NPCs roll about seven dice. So I wanna I wanna I wanna get that down. So you mentioned that the character that shot William.

Matthew: 43:17

William's character. William had probably seven dice with the gun bonus. So seven dice inclusive

Dave: 43:25

of that. Something like that.

Matthew: 43:26

You know, which is entirely realistic. You know, three points of quick, two points of of shooting and

Dave: 43:35

And a good gun.

Matthew: 43:36

Yeah. A good gun, wouldn't it? Yeah. So that is an entirely reasonable generated character there.

Dave: 43:43

And that's and that's without aiming as well. That's without giving them some of the other mechanical bonuses that the game offers the players. Yeah. So yeah.

Matthew: 43:50

You also mentioned in the article that you probably only give them one or two talents. So again, there may be had let let's let's take that. That that poor chap, or rather poor Tony was one shotted by that chap with seven dice. Had things had the dice rolled differently, Would you have been to and and and and and that particular gang were were falling like nine pins to our expert gunfighting. Would you have said, oh, okay.

Matthew: 44:25

Well, that guy's gonna die. But this guy, you haven't actually shot yet. He's also got the same stats because I'm not making up a million stats all these different people. But you might go, well, actually, you know, let's just give him a pistol, a talent or something to give him an extra a little bit extra, an eighth die or or even ninth die or something like that. Do you is that the sort of thing you're talking about doing on the fly?

Dave: 44:54

I guess yes and no. I mean, in that situation, I didn't do that. I don't remember.

Matthew: 44:59

No. Because we just one shotted Tony after all.

Dave: 45:02

Well, even even at the point where that character was introduced into the fight, because you'd you'd had a a very tense fight, and actually, it felt quite well balanced because, you know, you had some of you had been been wounded, had been hurt without being criticaled. You had taken down, you know, the bad guys.

Matthew: 45:17

I I think we'd critical, but just minor crits, not not not deadly crits.

Dave: 45:21

Possibly. But again, I I'm quite I'm I'm

Matthew: 45:25

pretty sure I've been shot somewhere.

Dave: 45:27

Yeah. So it had been a tense fight, and I think most fights should you know, are quite tense because of the the high risk of of getting a bad dice roll, killing you off. So I think if yeah. If if I'd created that character who joined the fight at the end and then shot Tony and killed him, if I'd created him as a much as a, like, a a super gunslinger, I might well, at that point, have reduced his skill considering how tense the fight had already been. If the fight had been a piece of piss, if you'd each fired a shot and killed them all and not taken a scratch, then I might have, you know, had that character.

Dave: 46:06

You know, if they were a gunslinger character, I might have left them at those stats there to maintain, you know, a higher level of tension. I think I think the one the one thing I would say is if you were going to create a character that is a powerful gunslinger, know, a wild Bill Hickok or his then there's nothing wrong with doing that, because that's quite fun. As a GM, creating a non player character that is really good at these kind of things is a lot of fun. And there are some talent combinations that can be exceedingly powerful if you if you find the right combinations. So for example, I've been playing Brody Anaheim for a very long time now.

Dave: 46:48

He's earned a lot of XP. He's got quite a lot of talents. I've just given him the higher level of Pistolia, which reduces the called shot negative from minus three to minus one, and also the first level of dead eye, which gives him minus one on his a a bonus or takes one off the called shot negative. So now his called shot negative is zero.

Matthew: 47:12

Right.

Dave: 47:12

Now that's powerful. Now you could create an NPC with that combination of talents, but you are making you are making their call shot as easy as a normal shot for another player. So I think but I think that it's fun one, it's fun to do that. Two, it's it makes an exceedingly powerful character enough, but I think if you're going to do that, you need in your story somewhere to flag the fact that this guy is fucking awesome, and flag the fact that if the players go up against this guy for any reason, they are at serious risk of losing their lives. And then the players get to choose whether they want to go up against him or not, or choose dealing with him in another way, maybe a nonviolent way, or a violent way that isn't so honorable, you know, sneaking up behind him and shooting him through a window or something.

Dave: 48:01

So I think but I think that is fine, but in that situation, you've really got to flag how dangerous this man or woman is, so the players have a choice about whether they go up against him or not, or have a really clear choice about whether you know, they've obviously got a choice about whether they draw their gun against any NPC. But I think for some people or or or some people. For many players, it might be easy to think that, you know, I can go up against somebody with a gun and chances are I'm gonna win, because I'm quite good with a gun. But if you've got a character that is is that skilled, then I think it's really important to flag how much better they are than everybody else. They would be a name that would be known across the state.

Dave: 48:44

There would be somebody who, you know, like Wild Bill Hickok would come into town and everyone would go bloody hell, that's Wild Bill. So the players get a a really definitive choice about whether they wanna take that risk.

Matthew: 48:57

Okay. Okay. I'm still gonna I'm still gonna need this point there, Winston.

Dave: 49:01

That's fine.

Matthew: 49:02

That's So your your general mooks, your gang members alike, you could obviously, we've got some pre prepared NPCs in the core book. Yeah. You could also use a template, if you wanted somebody a bit different to that, and make some choices, and do the quick character creation. You could, I guess, not really for mooks, but you could if you wanted. If you like making characters, just do the the the life path

Dave: 49:31

The life path. Yep.

Matthew: 49:33

And and then you leave those stats as they are. They've got a couple of most of them will likely have a couple of talents or talent or two. And what you're saying there is if you mooch, just leave them at that. So they are a little they're definitely a little bit weaker than the player characters because they don't use faith and push their dice.

Dave: 49:58

Yeah. Yeah? And I and I think that's, that makes sense because again, they can still be

Matthew: 50:05

They can still be deadly. Still be deadly. Tony found out and William William Halston found out. So that's cool. And there and there's likely to be more of them than there are other players as well, I imagine, very often.

Matthew: 50:20

So when you're coming up to your your named characters, as it were, your your big bosses or your secondary big bosses. Yep. What's so you've just talked about how Brody Anaheim is, you know, he his experience points up the wazoo now. He's got everything. He can headshot everybody if he wants to with with very little penalty, apart from a shitty dice roll.

Matthew: 50:45

How do you go about adding points to the characters that are meant to be more challenging?

Dave: 50:57

Well, again, think it's a judgment call when you're creating the character as a GM. Mhmm. As I said in the piece, you know, you I I would normally, you know, make them very good at one or two things, and that might mean they would get, you know, three or four talents that are relevant to helping them do those things. But, again, I think it it comes down to the GM judgment about, you know, you you can put in somebody who's super powerful, you know, who who is who could shoot the wings off a fly kind of character, or could, you know, talk the hind legs off a donkey and still persuade it to go for a walk afterwards. But I think you just have to again bear in mind that that so that's so that's I guess there's a probability curve here of a a a really bad outcome happening for the players, for the player characters.

Dave: 51:49

And what what you do now for every character, even a mook, that probability curve has a little bit at the far right end of it, which is fatal or or or Yeah. Or the character's going to lose in some way or another. The more you boost your your your kind of key non player characters, your big bosses, the more you shift that curve to the right. So therefore, the bigger the chance that something fatal or something very bad will happen for the player characters. And I think, again, it's just a bit it's just a judgment.

Dave: 52:21

I mean, have a you know, if you wanna create a a a gunslinger, work out what you think would be really cool, and then see, okay, how many dice does Zach actually give me With his, you know so he's got, you know, he's got, you know, plus two to his shooting for various talents. He's got the talents that allow him to to to call shot at minus one, say, instead of minus three. He's got a Colt 45, which will give him a plus two bonus. And then say, okay. With all of that, he's now got 10 dice.

Dave: 52:54

If he aims, he's got 12. Is does how how does how does that feel? You know, imagine yourself at the table rolling 12 dice of this guy doing a cold shot against one of your player characters, and they're, you know, the a player's character they've worked on for for a long time. How does that feel? Does that feel like a right level of risk to that character, or does that feel like too risky?

Dave: 53:18

And if it feels too risky, then take away the cold shot talent. So he's got minus three. So again, if he aims, he's on nine dice. That's still quite dangerous. You're likely to get one success there.

Dave: 53:30

You might get two. If you get two, he's getting a critical role on whatever location you've decided to shoot. If it's his head, roll a five or six, the man's down and gone. So those are the kind of considerations you need to to think about. And I think the point I was making in the piece was sometimes as a GM, I make that I make I make a poor judgment in my in my preparation.

Dave: 53:53

When it comes to the game, I suddenly think, fuck, this guy's got 10 dice, and he's gonna hit the guy in the head. And that's kind of what he should do. You know, that's what that character should be doing. And so in those situations, I might then go, okay, I'll give him eight dice. Let's say he's got a different gun.

Dave: 54:07

Let's say he's you know? But so I think I think there's definitely a judgment, know, particularly for the for the bigger, more dangerous characters you've got or the ones that are are going to be part of the big climax of your scenario or your campaign. Have a little have a create them create them as you'd want them to be, but then have a think, okay, I'm at the table now, and this guy is using his presence against the players' characters, or he's gonna shoot the player characters. How does that feel now? How many dice am I actually rolling?

Dave: 54:37

Is that too strong? In which case, knock off a couple of dice here or there. I mean, I won't I won't mention the name of kind of the big bad in the campaign in the book because the players would have to learn that. And if you are listening, that will be a spoiler.

Matthew: 54:53

A spoiler. Yeah. Okay.

Dave: 54:55

But when creating that character, I was I was trying to you know, I was making those thoughts. And in one case, he's got eight dice with his ability and his attributes, and he's got a couple of talents that are relevant to to that. So that brings him up to maybe 10 dice in that, which I think feels feels right for that character, because this is the character you will engage with during the campaign. But actually, it'll be the climax of the campaign will be deciding not just deciding, but, you know, he will be influential in the climax of the campaign. So I think yeah.

Dave: 55:35

I went through that process in creating those characters, and I kind of feel I feel that they're okay. But again, if a GM coming to run that campaign sees the character and goes, oh, that feels a bit sharp, then they should entirely feel justified in knocking down, you know, maybe his ability score from four to two, if that feels better for their campaign.

Matthew: 56:00

Cool. Cool. And so I'm also picking up here that it's mostly about talents. You're not adding all that many more points to their skills. Obviously, we can't add points to their stats.

Matthew: 56:11

Stats only ever get sorry. When I say that their attributes only ever go down as they get older. Yep. But skills can go up. So or abilities can go up.

Matthew: 56:20

So are we adding are you are you adding any points to their abilities?

Dave: 56:26

What's your Yeah. So I'm so I'm definitely being more generous. For those for those characters who are are key and are expected to be a cut above your average MOOC, then yes, absolutely, they are getting extra points in their abilities, which which makes absolute sense. But again, recognizing that these are these characters are trying to represent real people. So I'm not trying to represent Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Dave: 56:57

Might be a bad example because his dossity Now that that's Now actually, Arnold Schwarzenegger is probably a good one, because early Obviously, in his early films and with his early career, people might have gone he's a bit of a thicker, but actually he's not at all. He's a very intelligent man. Mhmm. So actually, he might be a really good example where you would expect to have a very high grit for an Arnold Schwarzenegger kind of character. You might have quite a high quick if you're following some of his characters from the movies, because he's very good with a gun.

Dave: 57:24

Cunning should be reasonably high. Endocity should be reasonably high. But again, so you're not but you're not gonna get necessarily many characters who are good at everything.

Matthew: 57:33

Yeah.

Dave: 57:33

So, you know, the character that I'm referencing is is very good at some things and not so good at others, which is which is fine, because there are other things Yeah. That can that are in the campaign that might offset some of the areas where he's weaker. But yeah. So to answer your question, yes, you would give more abilities more ability points to a more experienced character. You know, imagining, you know, what I mean, if you really wanted to as a GM, you could roll up a character using the life path sake because that's fun.

Dave: 58:06

It doesn't take very long if if that's what you wanted. And then you could say, okay, I'm gonna give him 50 XP, and then just spend then just spend that XP on him and see where it takes you. Because that's 10 scenarios on average, say

Matthew: 58:20

Yeah.

Dave: 58:21

For a for a player character. And that would allow you to to do that. Now, I I haven't tended to do that. I've kind of, I guess, made that judgment somewhere in my unconscious at the back of my head as to what feels right, but you could easily do that. You could take 50 x p for a one of your powerful characters.

Dave: 58:38

For a subsidiary character, you might want to take 20 or 30 XP and add those to your base stats and see what happens. That's another way

Matthew: 58:46

You think it's you know, offering advice. So your key advice though is when you've done that, sense check the number of dice they're rolling on their best ability, particularly the ones that they're gonna be using against the players, and go, how's it gonna feel at the table if I'm rolling? Oh, 15 dice. Maybe a bit fewer than that.

Dave: 59:10

Right? Absolutely.

Matthew: 59:11

That's your key bit of advice. But have you would you and and again, you don't do this. But could you advise if somebody's looking, I need something to help me think about, for want of a better word, balance. I don't like using balance. I much prefer characters to decide they're not gonna take on well Bill Hickok because he's too bloody good.

Dave: 59:30

Yes. Exactly.

Matthew: 59:31

But, you know, if you're gonna, if you're saying, okay, so our big bad is going to we're going to assume he's done roughly the same amount of, adventures in his life as my players have. So, they've done 10 adventures. He's going to have 10 adventures and maybe the secondary ones, they're going to have half that, say. So, he's got 50 experience points, they've got 25 to add on. Or would you go, no, don't bother.

Matthew: 01:00:04

Let's let's let's think about the the character from the character I want to, you know, you so eloquently described how you talk about the character's motivations and stuff like that. Do you then go more yeah. I mean, I think you do go more on the fly and go, right. So I think he would have a, you know, this ability at at at this level, you know, and Yes. And and and these and these talents.

Matthew: 01:00:34

Do you think there there is any any advantage maybe to a less experienced DM to go, okay, let's think about this format mathematically in a way and go, okay, let's have the big bad equaling the characters in the number of experience points roughly that they've got. With always a proviso that they don't push. So Mhmm. Yeah. So they are just that little bit weaker than the characters.

Dave: 01:00:58

Yeah. I think that's not a bad idea. I would so so, yeah, I think you've got it right there. So when I'm when I'm creating these characters, I am I am working out who they are, what their motivations are, what their wants and needs are, and fears, and all that kind of stuff, what their general background is, before I start statting them out. And then I stat them out accordingly based on what I think their experience has been.

Dave: 01:01:24

Now, as I said, I I do that without using XP. I just make a judgment. But I think probably in the back of my mind somewhere, there's a bit of my brain making that kind of calculation. It just doesn't I'm not doing it consciously. But actually, for your point about, you know, for a for a less experienced GM or somebody who wants a bit of guidance, yeah, I think, yeah, maybe take 50 as your yardstick for your for your big bad and use 50 XP.

Dave: 01:01:50

But then spend them based on the background that you've worked out for the character and what their wants and needs are. You know? So if you've got if you've got a character who's all about wheeler dealing and persuasion and intrigue and cunning, don't make him a sharpshooter. Use your use your points to create that character. If you've got a Wild Bill Hickok, then, yeah, use your points to make him into a gunslinger that everybody is frightened of.

Matthew: 01:02:14

And then we can shoot him from behind.

Dave: 01:02:17

Exactly. But that's exact you know, because that but that is that's exactly the kind of decision making you want the game to put upon the players, because that's where it gets really exciting. I mean, a a really good example, not in terms of the Old West that just came to mind in all of this, was the Song

Matthew: 01:02:33

of

Dave: 01:02:33

Ice and Fire campaign that that we played, when Andy's character had kind of threatened to take on the mountain

Matthew: 01:02:42

Mhmm.

Dave: 01:02:42

But didn't really want to, and then got maneuvered into the duel against the mountain. And I could you could see the look on Andy's face. He's like, I'm stuck here. I've I've walked myself into this situation through the choices I've made, and now I'm gonna have to fight this guy, and he's gonna kill me. And it was brilliant.

Dave: 01:03:01

So, you know, he he he still had a choice there to say no, I'm not gonna do it, but then obviously he would lose his honor and he was a knight and all the rest of it. But that's the kind of situation you wanna put the players in with a really deadly character in tales of the old west. You know, put them in a situation where maybe they kind of feel almost forced into facing the guy down. What what motivation would be strong enough for for one of your player characters to put their life so much on the line in that in that situation? Alternatively, then they, you know, like Andy, they'd be looking for another way out.

Dave: 01:03:34

So actually, they do sneak into his bedroom and knife him to death while he's asleep or shoot him in the bath or or whatever.

Matthew: 01:03:41

That's what Marco Salk would have done. I know that.

Dave: 01:03:43

Yeah. Exactly. But this is exactly the kind of of conundrum, of situation that is perfect for Tales of the Old West, and it makes for great gains. And and you can have, you know, conflict within the group about how something should be handled. You know, we had it's not quite such a a tense a dangerous thing, but in in the campaign the playtest campaign that we've been playing on a Wednesday forever, Conor's Conor's previous character was a was a basically a gunslinger called Bodega, and he he got called out by a bloke and and it's for a duel, and he agreed.

Dave: 01:04:20

And as they're walking out into the street, he shot him in the back and killed him. And he he took that choice willingly and openly and and the consequences of it, but he had the choice because he didn't want to deal with him in a duel because he was too scared he was gonna get shot. And it but again, it it gives your character. It gives your players those choices to make. And I think that's what that's what is really, really good about that element of of the game, because because there is always that big element of risk, and you might want to find another way of dealing with it.

Dave: 01:04:55

But the other way of dealing with it comes with other consequences, which again is kind of the thing I was trying to say in the piece about, you know, it's not just the risk of being bashed on the head by the by the sword of the big boss man and maybe falling over at the end of the fight. There are other consequences that that come out of those kind of conflicts in Tales of the Old West.

Matthew: 01:05:18

Cool. Cool. Cool. Okay. Well, I think we've I would just one point to finish on.

Matthew: 01:05:26

Yeah. You said how, you know, think how you feel when you're pulling out that large number, that pool of dice. And there have been times when you have rolled a bunch of dice and have gone, as a player, oh, shit. So I think you've got that about right, given that my character has survived. But

Dave: 01:05:45

Yeah.

Matthew: 01:05:45

I have been pretty scared. Okay. We have gone on long enough though. This is meant to be a short episode, and we're gonna go over the hour. So what are we doing?

Matthew: 01:05:55

Oh, we've already said what we're doing next week. So that cuts the time short. Yep. We don't need to say that again. Who's it goodbye from?

Dave: 01:06:04

It's goodbye from him.

Matthew: 01:06:06

And it's goodbye from me.

Dave: 01:06:08

And may the icons bless your adventures. And see you at Tabletop Scotland.

Matthew: 01:06:14

Woo hoo. Woo hoo.

Dave: 01:06:19

You have been listening to the Effect podcast, presented by Fiction Suit and the RPG Gods. Music stars on a black sea used with permission of Free League Publishing.