Dave: 00:39

Hello and welcome to episode Dave.

Matthew: 00:50

And I'm Matthew.

Dave: 00:50

And he's Matthew. That was a long pause.

Matthew: 00:54

Yeah. No. I I I feel I that, you know, we need to add more dead air into this episode.

Dave: 00:59

We've oh, we've we've only done this 262 times, obviously. So you thought you'd have got the got the basics of it done by now. But never mind. Carry on.

Matthew: 01:08

Well, yeah, normally, I cut in on top of you, you see. I just give you plenty plenty of time to finish.

Dave: 01:14

That's that's good of you. That's good of you.

Matthew: 01:17

But right now, you're cutting into my bit where I tell everybody what's happening in the program. We've got a new patron to thank. Whoo. So we'll be thanking that new patron. I'll tell you more about them in a moment.

Matthew: 01:27

We've got three very different crowdfunders in our world of gaming for very different things. Uh-huh. So that will be interesting. We have an interesting Old West News. I know we keep saying, well, we're not gonna run Old West News anymore, but we have a bit of a mea culpa to discuss on Old West News.

Matthew: 01:50

So tune in for that. Then, as promised, we are talking about faith in the third horizon.

Dave: 01:57

We are.

Matthew: 02:00

So shall we crack on with with our our new patron?

Dave: 02:06

Let's yep. Indeed. Crack on.

Matthew: 02:09

So welcome, Paul Penner. I'm guessing, p e double n a. Hello, Paul. You've joined the patronage. Come and join the Discord as well.

Matthew: 02:21

It's a world of fun in our Discord.

Dave: 02:23

It is.

Matthew: 02:23

And it's the nicest place on the Internet.

Dave: 02:25

TM. Yes. Thank you, Paul. Great great to have you on board, and thank you for your support. And, yeah, look forward to seeing you on the Discord hopefully very soon.

Matthew: 02:34

Excellent. Then then we've got three really interesting stories in the world of gaming. We have got three very different crowdfunders. The first one I think is very interesting, and I'm pretty sure is kind of tariff related. Troll Lord games are crowdfunding a factory.

Dave: 02:56

That's interesting. I hadn't heard about this until I saw that, but I'm having a I'm gonna have a quick quick look up look it up now. But, yes, go on. Then could

Matthew: 03:07

Troll Lord Troll Lord games do castles and crusades. That's their that's their main bag. Yeah. The news I got was from the lovely Morris on Endworld. And I must admit, unlike unlike a respectable newspaper, I haven't actually checked my sources on that one.

Matthew: 03:29

I just took Boris' word for it. And I'm just gonna maybe I should actually check out. This was a tweet he he put on Blue Sky. I haven't even actually checked whether Enworld talks about it at all.

Dave: 03:41

I'd like to say that, obviously, we're we're we're not a, an accredited news an accredited news outlet or network. So have you ever checked your sources before? I mean, it just

Matthew: 03:55

doesn't do.

Dave: 03:56

Doesn't feel to me like like we do that very much in this.

Matthew: 03:59

But but maybe I should have done because I'm not actually seeing any of this news even on end world.

Dave: 04:03

Yeah. I mean, we are all about rumor and hearsay, aren't we? I mean, come on. This is this is a Yeah. Podcast.

Matthew: 04:08

We we we are all about

Dave: 04:10

We should always start the program with a disclaimer saying that, you know, whatever we talk about might be totally, totally fictitious. Well, that's quite

Matthew: 04:18

a lot

Dave: 04:18

of what we talk about is totally fictitious. But you see how I'm covering, so to give you a bit of time to

Matthew: 04:24

Right.

Dave: 04:25

To look at that.

Matthew: 04:25

Track. So I I have discovered on BakkerKit. We I I I will put a link in the show notes just to prove it's actually happening. Troll Lord Games, The Factory. Troll Lord has been in the TTRPG years for twenty five years.

Matthew: 04:44

Thanks to the tremendous support of our growing community. We are finally able to expand our operation to include our very own print shop and warehouse.

Dave: 04:51

So

Matthew: 04:54

this is on back of kit. Their Target oh, it's interestingly only a $100. I didn't know you could get a print shop that cheaply.

Dave: 05:03

Okay. That's interesting. That's very interesting.

Matthew: 05:07

You can purchase a spot on the wall of names at all the dawn out entryway, a brick engraved with your name that will line the walkway leading to the factory's entrance, or a native Arkan Arkansas how how do you say Arkansan?

Dave: 05:24

It's Sorry.

Matthew: 05:25

That's I'm spelling it out. Arkansorn?

Dave: 05:28

It's well, I well, ark it's pronounced Arkansas

Matthew: 05:34

Yeah.

Dave: 05:34

As as the so if you're talking about what? A a a resident of Arkansas. Arkansan, I guess. Arkansasoren? I don't know.

Dave: 05:46

I don't know. It's interesting.

Matthew: 05:47

I don't know. We've just written a game based on the Old West. We should know how to pronounce the native of Arkansas, Smokey. Well, anyway

Dave: 05:53

Arkansas is quite east for our purposes, so, in terms of

Matthew: 05:58

what we're Yeah. Thank god for that. We don't need to worry about you at all, residents of Arkansas, unless we need to write your address on an order. If so yeah. So, yeah, I think, you know, home printing stuff.

Matthew: 06:12

They've got a picture of some machines that I'm sure are gonna cost more than a $100. I am intrigued as to how much they really hope to get, because obviously, they they aren't seriously thinking of building a factory for $100. We'll put a link in the show notes if you feel inclined to help.

Dave: 06:32

Yeah. Do say it does say here committed to expanding their print facility. So I don't know. It seems that they've got one already. It's not like they're getting one from scratch.

Dave: 06:45

It seems. But, yeah, you'd think you'd need tens of thousands for something like that or more, wouldn't you?

Matthew: 06:53

Or more. Yeah.

Dave: 06:55

But okay. Well, good luck to them. Think, you know and yes, I think you're you're absolutely right. It's almost certainly to do with not wanting to source stuff in China or the EU. Particularly now again that that that that Trump is talking about 30% tariffs on the European Union, which I saw, which is If that becomes the thing, that'll be an issue for us in the not too distant future.

Dave: 07:21

If we are producing, printing our books in Lithuania. So I suspect it's specifically in response to that, and I guess if you can afford to do it, it's a good way of doing it. But I guess it's a big investment if if you don't if you don't get the return.

Matthew: 07:41

Yeah. So just reading more about the story, they have actually been printing in house since 02/2005, printing their soft cover books in house. Mhmm. Their hardcover books are printed at a US factory. So my original assumption that this was Trump based or, shall I say, tariff based

Dave: 08:00

Yeah.

Matthew: 08:00

Is although they do mention all of tariffs, we're acutely aware of the dislocation that recent economic turns have caused. Mhmm. But given the printing in The US anyway anyway, it may be a good time to to do a Kickstarter like this and expand the the print shop.

Dave: 08:24

Well, I guess it's an interesting one as well, because what what do backers actually get? Is this just a way for the community to support this company in becoming

Matthew: 08:33

The book has got a named tree. There are 10 spots where you can have a tree in the grove around the factory, which I guess comes with a little sign saying that you paid for it.

Dave: 08:45

So I I mean, I guess my I guess my point is that actually you you don't get a product at the end of this. What you get is

Matthew: 08:50

You don't get a book.

Dave: 08:51

What you get is the satisfaction of of having helped this company, you know, basically with a capital investment towards their printing plant. Which is cool, that's fine, it's just that it's more of a an altruistic thing rather than a customer transaction thing, which obviously a lot of Kickstarters are. Because you expect to

Matthew: 09:15

get Which may be why they're not doing it on Kickstarter, because Kickstarter expressly forbids that sort of, you know, fundraising Kickstarter. There's gonna be a product Yeah. Behind the Kickstarter, I think. So

Dave: 09:34

Oh, really?

Matthew: 09:35

So, yeah, read all about it on low end on the link that we'll put in the show notes. Yeah. And so far, as of recording, they have made $14,900 from 185 backers. Yeah. And they've got thirty two days left.

Dave: 09:58

Cool.

Matthew: 10:00

Now there's another interesting backer kit. Oh, I can't remember if it's on backer kit. This is from not a troll lord, but a

Dave: 10:09

A green A green Ronin.

Matthew: 10:11

Green color. So let's let's let's look that one up as well.

Dave: 10:17

I know. I'm doing we're we're very well prepared today. Here we are, spending our time just looking things up on on on Google.

Matthew: 10:25

The Green Running Legal Defense Fund is this one. We will put a link in the show notes. It's on GoFundMe, which is Right. Yeah. Not, again, Kickstarter, and this is precisely

Dave: 10:41

just crowdfunding thing, isn't it? Yeah.

Matthew: 10:43

Crowdfunding thing that this is the sort of site that lets people do. This sort of crowdfunding. Yeah. So far, they've raised more than Troll Lord Games. They've got 36,000 US dollars.

Matthew: 10:57

And this is about the subject we talked about a couple of weeks ago, or was it even four weeks ago, where dime Diamond Distribution is claiming the stock that it was holding in its warehouse for other publishers, but hadn't actually paid those publishers for any of that stock No. Is now trying to sell that stock to cover its debts.

Dave: 11:23

Yes. Now trying to claim that that stock for certain legal legal

Matthew: 11:27

reasons is

Dave: 11:28

actually theirs to sell and keep the profit from and not the owned not owned by the actual companies that produce them.

Matthew: 11:37

Yeah.

Dave: 11:38

Seems a bit unfair and maybe, you know, a sign of desperation for Diamond of the situation that they're in.

Matthew: 11:48

Yeah. Absolutely. Good luck to them as well. Because I think it's quite important.

Dave: 11:55

Yeah. It's a it's it's a terrible precedent to set if if the if the if distribution warehouse and the company can just say, oh, we're we're running out of money. So actually, all this stock that we're holding for you and you're paying us to keep, that's ours now. We're gonna do with it what we like. That doesn't seem terribly fair and equitable.

Dave: 12:16

No. You would think I mean, maybe, you could argue that, you know, the the the companies that own those stock might have to pay to have it moved somewhere else. But, you know, if if the distributor's, you know, bankrupt and has got no money, but still Yeah. That that's still a potentially, if you've got a lot of stock, that's a potentially punishing extra cost that you haven't factored in. So it's a yeah.

Dave: 12:43

It's a it's a tough one. I mean, I I obviously feel for for Diamond for going bankrupt, but I'm not this is this isn't the way to to try and rescue themselves, I don't think.

Matthew: 12:53

No. No. I mean, in a way, though, it's not necessarily Diamond, of course. Actually, it's whoever Diamond's administrators are.

Dave: 13:06

Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew: 13:07

There will be an accountancy company that's gone in and gone, we think we can sell this off and pay off the people to whom.

Dave: 13:16

Yes. That's a fair

Matthew: 13:17

owes money.

Dave: 13:18

That's a fair point. And and I guess potentially, if you look at it in a very sterile and what's the right way of putting it? Ruthless ruthless way. So if you look at this from a, you know, a very sterile and ruthless, you know, way, you could possibly argue that the accountants are simply doing what their responsibility is, which is to get the best for

Matthew: 13:48

for Oh, absolutely.

Dave: 13:49

For the investors in the company and all of that. And if this is actually seemingly a legal thing that they are doing, then it might not be very ethical or moral, but in strict legal terms it might be reasonable is the wrong word. It might be something that they can legally try and do. Which means that, you know, that loophole in whatever legislation is obviously an issue because that shouldn't be there. But then, know, in the wider scheme of things, what you are doing is is severely damaging the people who are good customers of that business a desperate attempt to pay off the investors in that business when that business has gone out of out of business.

Dave: 14:31

Yeah. Means business in one sentence. That's definitely not, you know, an ethical way of going about doing it. But I guess in many cases where money is concerned, in many countries, ethics are less important than the bottom line to to a lot of people. Yeah.

Dave: 14:49

Sadly. No.

Matthew: 14:51

But, you know, given given, as you know, we've been talking about distribution and American distribution, and we know how much it costs as it were, you hardly one, I feel, can hardly break even with an American distributor unless one puts a lot of stock in their warehouses and, obviously, and that they managed to sell it. Yeah. And you managed to help them to sell it. So then having that stock taken from you turns it immediately from a only just making profit to making a massive loss. Yes.

Matthew: 15:25

So I have every sympathy for Green

Dave: 15:28

Yep.

Matthew: 15:28

Ronnen Me too. Whatever the rights and wrongs legally and ethically are.

Dave: 15:35

Well, you know, I think, I mean, it it it's we I think the rights and wrongs are are pretty clear. I think it's it's it's it's whether there is a, you know, unfair stroke inappropriate stroke, exploitative loophole in the law that this company is trying to take take advantage of. But, yeah, completely completely behind the the the the companies who are now effectively being ripped off.

Matthew: 16:03

Right. Now I've also got a crowdfunder, but this is for something really quite unusual, at least in this week. This is for a new game.

Dave: 16:13

Crowdfunder for a new game? Never.

Matthew: 16:15

Yeah. Who'd have thought that?

Dave: 16:17

Exactly. Yes.

Matthew: 16:21

Now this isn't actually live yet, but it's just got up, and I like it so much. I'm talking about it now. Mhmm. It's from your friend of mine, Dave. It's from Paul Badowski of All Rolled Up and desanctioned fame.

Dave: 16:36

Indeed.

Matthew: 16:37

And it looks like a fabulous thing that I chuckled at when he first started I think the word is skeeting about it on Blue Sky. Uh-huh. Don't don't don't give me that look. Don't roll your eyes at me, Dave. When he when he when he started posting about it on Blue Sky, I thought, that is a very amusing title.

Matthew: 17:03

And then magically, it's all come together, and he's actually put a Kickstarter page or Kickstarter preview page, I should say, up. And there will be a campaign. And this is for the marvelous game, Kirkboard.

Dave: 17:19

Kirkboard.

Matthew: 17:21

See, my my my Swedish is getting better. I almost got that right.

Dave: 17:25

Yeah. So it's a So Yeah. It's spelled

Matthew: 17:28

Carry on, Tate.

Dave: 17:29

Spelled c o r k, but the o is actually a Swedish letter called an So you pronounce it as so it's Kirk Kirkboard. Yeah. Anyway, you'll you'll you'll wanna you'll I can feel you just bursting to gush about this game and about what what you'd like

Matthew: 17:44

to actually say. Really, the thing I want to gush about is Kirkborg. If you're gonna do a version of Mortaporg, of which we have seen

Dave: 17:52

Many.

Matthew: 17:52

Very many Morborgs, then doing and, you know, let's talk about this. This muck borg is out of Sweden. What else comes out of Sweden? And indeed, pretty much all of Scandinavia now. Everyone's getting in on the act.

Matthew: 18:07

And that is Nordic police procedurals.

Dave: 18:10

Yes.

Matthew: 18:11

And so Kirk Borg is the mork borg of Nordic police procedurals.

Dave: 18:17

With select

Matthew: 18:18

I have no idea what it's gonna play like. Yeah. Yeah. And and very likely to be horror as well. So, yeah, I I don't wanna be the sole gusher here.

Matthew: 18:31

You can gush a bit about it too, Dave, even though you've only just heard about it.

Dave: 18:35

Well, I I it looks nice. I I I've enjoyed some of the books of that that Paul has has listed as inspiration, like Stig Larsson and Joe Nesbahr. So, yeah, I think it would be cool. I mean and obviously, I mean, Paul's great, and his work is great. So this is gonna be good.

Dave: 19:04

Yeah. I I'm I'm I'm I don't know

Matthew: 19:07

whether Paul's work is great. I mean, our work is great. Paul's work can only be quite good.

Dave: 19:11

Paul's work is great. Our work is is like, you know, chef's kiss, you know. So I mean,

Matthew: 19:16

so Yeah. Yeah. Not not

Dave: 19:17

to Okay. Not to, you know, build up of, you know

Matthew: 19:21

Although, hang on. Hang on. And for somebody to question our research.

Dave: 19:26

Well, mistakes can happen, and we will talk about that in a minute. But no. It looks lovely. It's so so it's on it's it's got a notification page up on Kickstarter at the moment. As as you know, as some people know, I'm I'm interested in police procedurals.

Dave: 19:46

Mhmm. I am thinking about something along those lines for for us that affect. Well, more than thinking about. I've done quite a lot of work on and almost ready to start playtesting. So yeah, I love that idea.

Dave: 20:03

Is an interesting thing. So I'm trying to a reasonable sensible thought out of all this, only just having learned about this twenty minutes ago.

Matthew: 20:13

Shall I intercede though, Dave?

Dave: 20:14

No. Let me just finish my point before I before I forget it. How many how many Mercboy variants are we going to get? And when is one too many? But you could also say the same for u zero engine, because you get a lot of u zero engine variants and when is one too many for that as well.

Matthew: 20:38

Yeah. But, You can also say the same for d twenty fifth edition, I think. There's a lot of variance to that.

Dave: 20:46

Well, yeah, of course. Yeah. That is very that is very true. And I guess it just goes to prove how good the original work by Pella and Nirhan was that, Mortbjorg has spawned such a, such an enthusiastic, offspring, in all sorts of different areas. So, yeah.

Dave: 21:09

Yes. I'm I'm not sure. See, why I was struggling to get my thoughts together was because I'm not really sure what point I'm making other than observing the fact that there are a lot. I wasn't I wasn't saying it was a bad thing necessarily.

Matthew: 21:23

But You're speaking as a man that's played none of them. And my argument will be

Dave: 21:29

Play it.

Matthew: 21:30

There's gonna carry on being Morgborg variants until there's one that you, Dave, actually sit down and play.

Dave: 21:36

Yeah. That's What

Matthew: 21:37

they're trying to do is find something that will make you pick up a Morcbog.

Dave: 21:42

I I do own quite a lot of them.

Matthew: 21:45

Yeah. Yeah. But you've not played any of them,

Dave: 21:47

have you? Played any of them. No. That is true. I should get I should do that.

Dave: 21:51

I should take that as a as a as a oh god. My my brain this morning. My excuse is that I've got this bloody interview tomorrow and I've been prepared for that, so my brain is a bit frazzled.

Matthew: 22:03

Right. Okay.

Dave: 22:05

But, yeah.

Matthew: 22:05

I'll let you off that one.

Dave: 22:06

I can't

Matthew: 22:07

Think about it. What is the risk assessment of you not playing Mork Board a cork board?

Dave: 22:12

I can do a risk assessment on that. Yes. And then the easy mitigation of that risk is to play the game. So Yes.

Matthew: 22:20

Absolutely. Yeah.

Dave: 22:23

Maybe I should

Matthew: 22:24

Right. But the first thing one needs to do is back it. And, course, there are risks associated with backing it. But we will put a link to the preview page in the show notes, and everybody else can make their own risk assessment and decide whether or not they want to pack it.

Dave: 22:38

Indeed. Indeed. Never guess what my job's about, or this job I'm going for anyway. But yeah. Cool.

Matthew: 22:47

Cool. Cool. Cool. I'm keeping the details of your job entirely secret as is befitting Dave.

Dave: 22:51

That is fine. Yes. Yes.

Matthew: 22:54

Now yes, shall we move on to a thing that has been slightly foreshadowed in our previous segment?

Dave: 23:03

Yes. Indeed. So the other day, we

Matthew: 23:08

I got a letter.

Dave: 23:09

You got a letter.

Matthew: 23:11

An actual paper letter in an envelope. Three pages of letter. I I was so excited just by this form of communication.

Dave: 23:21

Yeah.

Matthew: 23:22

And and I'm not I'm not taking a piss here. I really liked it.

Dave: 23:25

No. I agree. I agree as well. And for for the for the for so the letter was from, a gentleman called Charles King.

Matthew: 23:34

And Who's one of our backers.

Dave: 23:36

And he was he was saying that while he was really enjoying the book and that in in a in a in a a book that's 300 pages long, the way we've treated the history is actually very good, and we are getting it right across the board mostly. He did pull out one specific and quite important, error that we'd made. And so I think the there's two things I want to do here. One is to basically call out that error and explain what it is. Well, three things.

Dave: 24:12

Yeah. So so, basically, call out the error. Secondly, explain because because this is my drafting. It was my writing. I did I did, you know, most of the historical research on things like slavery and and and that.

Dave: 24:25

But so my mayor, Culper. I'll explain how, why.

Matthew: 24:30

It's nothing to do with me. I'm internally blameless in this matter. Is that what you're saying?

Dave: 24:34

I'm well, I'm I I wrote the line. I wrote that paragraph. So I'm I'm happy to Did write that line. I'm happy to accept the the fault in this instance. But oh, yeah.

Dave: 24:45

I I will do a little bit of explanation about how that came about.

Matthew: 24:50

Yeah. I think that is that is in itself interesting.

Dave: 24:53

And then and then thirdly, we are gonna fix that problem. So we, know so first and foremost, in in the book, we obviously talk quite a bit about things like the experience of native Americans and the, African American experience. So obviously in that we talk about slavery. The book isn't about the American civil war, but we obviously reference it because the American civil war was the the ultimate vehicle through which, slavery was abolished. I made a comment in, in the book that, there's a common misconception that the war was started over slavery.

Dave: 25:35

Now that is is an incorrect comment. My my explanation for how that happened is I got caught up very much, cos I've been thinking about it, I got caught up very much in the Union perspective. And while it is absolutely clear that the the driving reason behind the the secessionist states and the Confederate states was states' rights. And the key state right that they were fighting over was their right, as they saw it, to have slavery in their in their states. At the start of the war, from the Union perspective, slavery wasn't a wasn't the key reason they they they were fighting.

Dave: 26:24

They were war? Yeah. They were originally fighting. Mean, war was started by an attack by the Confederates. So kind of the Union was forced into the war, you could argue, I guess.

Dave: 26:34

But they were originally fighting to preserve the Union. That was their that was their number one objective when the war broke out. In fact, you know, at the start of the war, Lincoln promised not to interfere with interfere with slavery in the hope of keeping border states who were still with the union. Undecided. Yeah.

Dave: 26:55

Keep them loyal to the union. It was only a couple of years or yeah. Eighteen months into the war when he may after the Battle of Antiam, he made a preliminary proclamation in September, basically saying to the Confederate states, surrender in a hundred days or I'm gonna free all the slaves. They obviously didn't surrender in a hundred days. So on the January 1, he he announced the the Emancipation Proclamation, and that was when the focus of the war changed from the union side to just preserving the union to abolishing slavery at the same time.

Dave: 27:39

So my mistake was in trying to sum up five years of war and probably two hundred years of events leading up to it, in in one or two lines, I got very focused on the Union side and put that comment because at the start of the war, from a Union perspective, it wasn't about slavery. It was about preserving the Union. But Charles is absolutely right to say that the war was started because the Confederates were being uncompromising over what they saw as their rights to have slaves in their states. The secessionist proclamations that they made, I haven't seen them all, but I, you know, I understand that they were all referencing slavery as as a key thing and their rights to it. So mea culpa, that statement was wrong.

Dave: 28:34

I completely accept that in reading that paragraph, it gives the the the wrong impression about how the war started. I get I get that. Mea culpa. So so that's that's that's how it came about, because I got very focused. And I think the sources I was reading were looking at it much more from a union perspective than a confederate perspective, and that was my mistake.

Dave: 28:56

What are gonna do about it? So I've already redrafted that paragraph to correct that error.

Matthew: 29:01

I mean, the interesting little little sidebar before we get into what we're gonna do about it is that you were already thinking that because we're researching Gold Country Yes. You were saying that your reading in Gold Country was already making you think, oh, a little bit differently

Dave: 29:21

about Yeah. That You're absolutely right. I was I was already beginning to feel a little bit uncomfortable about that statement Because again, the issue of slavery is such an important one in sort of '18 late 1840s early 1850s California particularly. It was very clear actually how how important that basically, that reading was giving me a much better perspective from the Confederate perspective or the Southern States perspective, which is then making me think, okay, I've I've I might have missed something here. And it's a big miss.

Dave: 29:57

I accept that. But

Matthew: 30:00

yeah. And, of course, in histographically, quite a dangerous mistake as well, isn't it? Or quite dangerous submission. I mean, it was a shortcut. Let's face it.

Matthew: 30:13

You know, we're not writing a history book here. This was just a paragraph summarizing a very complex and nuanced argument.

Dave: 30:20

Yes.

Matthew: 30:20

Yeah. But, actually, it gives a false impression that it's actually quite a dangerous one and has proved quite dangerous in the twentieth and, I guess, even in the twenty first centuries.

Dave: 30:31

Yes. Absolutely. I mean, we need to we need to recognize the thing that I kind of failed to to to get into that one sentence that actually, like you say, there's racism was behind the, you know, the Confederate stand and and and led to their position on on the war. So, yeah, completely accept that.

Matthew: 30:53

So What are you doing about it, Dave?

Dave: 30:56

Yep. So I've I've already redrafted that paragraph through to correct that error. We will include that in in PDF and then any future printings will obviously have the correct text within it.

Matthew: 31:13

Yeah.

Dave: 31:14

We haven't talked about what else we might want to do something on Facebook and other socials just to draw attention to this. And thank Charles for his for his his excellent letter drawing and drawing this oversight to our attention and just making sure that we we kinda correct the record as it were.

Matthew: 31:34

Yeah. So I thought the the first thing we should do I mean, you've rewritten the paragraph, as we say, and, obviously, I've gotta see try and make sure it fits into the layout without screwing everything up.

Dave: 31:46

Yeah. It should it should do. And it can easily be modified slightly if if it's not quite if it's a bit too long or a bit too short. That's that's a

Matthew: 31:53

really easy But I thought before that, we ought to send that over to Charles and just say, look, this is what we think he was saying. So, Charles, if you're listening, although you sent us a lovely paper letter, which I'm I'm sorry. I I I'm so enthusiastic about this letter, but it just it made everybody. It made my wife think about how few letters we get nowadays

Dave: 32:16

I know.

Matthew: 32:16

Or send and how nice it was. But I probably will for for for speed sent, I will send it to you on your email address that we've got from Kickstarter. Yeah. And hopefully, you'll get it then. And I will include Dave's text in there.

Matthew: 32:33

And just for your comment on before we put it into the PDF. And, yeah, you're right. We should think about whether we want to do something in our social channels as well.

Dave: 32:45

Yeah. It's probably worth drawing just just just kind of replaying this conversation briefly on on the social socials just so so we, you know, we get that we get that correction out there.

Matthew: 33:01

Yeah. And and then if we get to reprint it, which I'd like to be able to get to do, we obviously, the reprint will come out with the with the change change text as well. Yeah. Yeah. We may is given that you were also in parallel, kind of discovering this in

Dave: 33:28

In the research of Gold Country. Yeah.

Matthew: 33:30

Gold Country. Do you think there's gonna be a section in Gold Country that talks about it in more detail? I mean, that's set before the civil war, so it's not gonna be specifically about the civil war. But but

Dave: 33:41

I think I'm not sure. I I I think it depends what context we need to give to put the situation in 1848 to 1855 California into the right context. Yeah. So it probably needs something. Yes.

Dave: 33:58

I think so. But, yeah, we'll we'll be be a bit more a bit more careful on that one. But, you know, I I hold my hands up on that, but, you know, we have worked pretty hard, and this is this is very much an oversight. But I'm pleased that most of the stuff we've been putting out in terms of the history has been getting a good reception and people are.

Matthew: 34:20

Yeah. But but, you know, we did say, and have always said since the very beginning of this, talking about this product or this project, you know, we've said, we're keen to learn. And, specifically, Charles, you know, cites our comment on page 12 that tell us if we get stuff wrong

Dave: 34:42

Yes.

Matthew: 34:42

As his reason for writing us a letter in the first place. So

Dave: 34:45

Yeah.

Matthew: 34:47

So thank you Charles.

Dave: 34:48

No, think definitely. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm very pleased that, you know, it was it was was the absolutely from my point of view, was absolutely the right way to go about holding us to account for things when we've made an error. So thank you, Charles, for doing that.

Dave: 35:03

That was that was greatly appreciated.

Matthew: 35:07

Brilliant. Okay. Now shall we move on to things that I think we got right in in in Thursday onwards? And that is our faith rules. Yeah.

Matthew: 35:20

And whether they can fit into Coriolis, the third horizon. Friend of the show, Jim, of raspy raven fame, was musing on the feedback he collected at the end of his run through of Emissary Lost, the first part of the Mercy of the Icons campaign. We will put a link to his thoughts as he's described them on his blog in the show notes. But the first draft, as it were, was on our Patreon exclusive Discord server. His final question was an interesting one.

Matthew: 36:04

Given that Coriolis was the very first adaptation of the year zero engine, is there another more recent version that might serve the third horizon better? My flippant answer was, of course, the very best iteration of the year zero engine, our very own tales of the Old West. But then I realized the answer isn't as flippant and throwaway as I had intended. One of the things that attracts us to the third horizon is the religion. Longtime listeners will have heard us frequently marveling at the way players have their characters go to chapel before any planned encounter to pray to the right icon and vehemently defending the darkness point push system because it is actual in game proof of the existence of the icons.

Matthew: 37:12

Tales of the Old West is the only other Year Zero game, at least that I know of, that has mechanics for faith. And I thought, you could just about drop the faith powered push system into Coriolis with only a few changes to the mishaps table. For example, you would have to change the results that damage your attributes as you don't take that sort of damage directly to your attributes in the more pulpy world of the third horizon. But, actually, it's not that simple, is it? There are, I think, three aspects of icon worship that make the darkness point push mechanic really reflect that world.

Matthew: 38:02

One, it's pulpy. Damage does not change your chances of success, and players are likely to earn darkness with abandon in the hope of scoring that vital critical hit. Two, the cost is not individual. Individual players don't necessarily experience the, the bad karma of the darkness points that they have earned. The whole party or other characters can suffer the results of your darkness point spend.

Matthew: 38:37

Indeed, darkness points fuel the supernatural powers of some of the creatures. The icons are specific. We tried very hard in tales of the Old West to make the faith mechanic as accessible as possible so your faith can feel just like your self confidence if you don't want to be religious. But in Coriolis, faith is not just about the icons. It's about a pantheon of icons.

Matthew: 39:12

Prepare for an encounter by praying to the right icon, and you get an extra dice in your pushed roll. Two, if you prayed at a chapel. So let's look at these three aspects and think what we might change in the tales of the old West faith push mechanic to make it better reflect the third horizon. First up, pulpiness. In our playtest experience, Tales of the Old West players will hoard their faith, more willing to accept failure than spend a faith point as quickly as choreoist players earn darkness points.

Matthew: 39:55

One reason for this is there's no limit to the darkness points a Coriolis character can spend, but a Tails player only gets four to start at least. They can earn more, but it takes time. Now I'm looking for a quick fix here and the quickest would be simply to say a push earns a darkness point for the GM like the original, but that's not working for me. So let's play test an even more simple solution. You start with more faith points.

Matthew: 40:31

While we're on that subject, of course, the list of actions that earn you extra faith might have to change too. For example, grooming your horse is not a thing that happens in the third horizon. Tending a garden might be. But importantly, we limit the number of times you can take each action in Tales of the Old West. I wonder if that limit is required in Coriolis.

Matthew: 41:02

Of course, the other reason Tales players are more reluctant to push their role is the fear of direct consequences or trouble as we call it, but that leads into the second issue. Trouble should, of course, be darkness in Corviolis, and I think the first five dice in every pool will now be darkness dice. And the simplest solution would be that ones on pushed darkness dice generate not trouble, but darkness points for the GM, which means now we might get nothing from a pushed roll, but we might get as many as five darkness points. Of course, players will all be able to buy off darkness by spending more faith. Will they though?

Matthew: 41:54

If the consequences of the darkness are spread across the whole party and pushed into the future? I like to think there will be at least some peer pressure to buy off darkness, but I think it might help if the GM has options to lay some darkness onto the praying character directly as well as storing some darkness up to fuel future events and the powers of supernatural creatures. And I have some thoughts about that. The third thing I wanted to address was making faith more icon specific for Coriolis. And that's the answer.

Matthew: 42:42

Make each faith point icon specific. Play starts with every character holding nine faith points, not four, one for each icon. They are blessed by all the icons or maybe 10 points. They could have an extra point from their assigned icon. You could use the icon cards they make for the Kickstarter.

Matthew: 43:10

Or now the license is available, somebody could make a new set with different aspects of each icon represented. When you pray, you hand a card to the GM. I did think for a moment that maybe you had to have a card for the relevant icon for the skill you are using, but I think that's far too limiting. Though maybe using the right icon for the prayer, the judge for shooting, say, means you avoid direct consequences if darkness is rolled, and maybe it's when you use an incorrect icon for the action that you're taking, that's when the GM gets to spend some darkness points to give you a direct consequence. For example, using the dancer for a shooting role might mean you drop your gun.

Matthew: 44:08

If you discard other icons to reduce the darkness of a role, then maybe the GM has more choice as to what the consequences are. It's not complete yet, and I feel it needs testing in play, but I think we have a framework here to work with. And finally, finally, an alternative push mechanic for Coriolis, the third horizon, that fits with the spirit of the setting?

Dave: 44:38

Yeah. So that yeah. It very interesting. Very interesting. I think, a couple of things I would I would draw out.

Dave: 44:45

Firstly, yeah. I mean, you're absolutely right that the darkness point mechanic really does reflect the Coriolis world. But I I I, you know, I don't think that precludes the option of using faith. No. Talk about it being, you know, Koryo's being a bit more pulpy.

Dave: 45:07

Damage doesn't change your chances of success. But, also, you know, you'd already said that you would need to change the way, you know, the damage is done because obviously it would just you know, it wouldn't reduce your chances of success because it would go against your health or your mental Yeah. Your mental stats.

Matthew: 45:25

Which may be fine, actually. You know? I think I don't think we necessarily need to look at changing the damage system as well, but we do need to think about consequences that give you a temporary knockback in those attributes in Tales of the Old West, which I think are very in keeping with that genre. Yeah. Not necessarily in keeping with the slightly more pulpy space opera y feel of Coriolis.

Dave: 45:53

Yeah. So I think I think I think the other, you know, the the other points you make is perhaps a slightly more pertinent, particularly the one around the the darkness point cost not being an individual cost. Because, you know, I think that's one thing that's really good about darkness points and Coriolis that, you know, you're building up bad karma, but actually that bad karma might reflect onto somebody else rather than you. Yeah. And as a group, it makes you there there's there's there's there's an in game way of being punished if you push too much because your other players will be telling you off or giving you a hard time over over, oh, look how many darkness points you've given us now kind of thing, because it's just quite a fun dynamic.

Dave: 46:38

I do like your idea of possibly having both where, you know, ones result in darkness points. Although, I'm not sure. You saying that those darkness points would then that would be just what we would call trouble? And so

Matthew: 46:56

Yeah. So yeah. So Yeah. Obviously, I think there'd be a terminology change here. I I switched in the in the text between trouble and darkness just because we're talking about a system that's caused it trouble.

Matthew: 47:09

Yeah. And we're moving to a system that talks about darkness points. So I imagine in the final version of this, it would talk about a number of darkness dice that you alongside your other ones, and that you'd you'd pick up on darkness. You know, you you you or or or some other word that's dark sounding.

Dave: 47:30

I think darkness would work really well, actually, just just replacing trouble for darkness. I think that works with the theme very nicely. Yeah.

Matthew: 47:39

And yeah. And yeah. Just and and there's there's two things. I mean, obviously, one could do a whole new edition of the Third Horizon where you you really move the mechanics in. But I think with this, what I'm looking for is and already, you know, there are ways, I think, Jim himself had different ways of dealing with darkness points.

Matthew: 47:59

We've discussed it frequently on our program. Yes. But I'm saying that here's something that could drop in and just this is now your store of darkness points is the number is the is the number of ones that the the players roll when they when they push their dice. But giving them the opportunity to spend their own you know, to spend their faith in in the way they do in Old West to try and mitigate that.

Dave: 48:30

To to buy off those darkness points. Yeah.

Matthew: 48:32

To buy off the darkness points. And, you know, I think there would be some peer pressure from other people around the table saying, no. Turn that off. You can't give them four bloody darkness points. Yeah.

Matthew: 48:45

Because there there is a danger, which I didn't really mention in the program, but there is a danger. We already say sometimes that the GM ends up with too many darkness points and doesn't know what to do with them. Yeah. So now, potentially, potentially you get no darkness points if the role is successful and doesn't roll any ones. But you could potentially end up with four or five darkness points on a

Dave: 49:09

Unlucky roll.

Matthew: 49:10

Yeah. On a pushed roll. So, I haven't worked out the maths, but I imagine there's more chance of earning darkness points. So, I think mitigating that by spending your faith is gonna be very important in this game

Dave: 49:26

Yeah.

Matthew: 49:26

For all the GM sanity.

Dave: 49:27

Yeah. I mean, I yeah. Yeah. Well, I was thinking about that. And, again, I mean, it might be different to a player if they are coming to Coriolis with these rules for the first time, but I think a player who's come to it having played the original darkness point mechanic might find that it's more important to save their faith for pushes than it is to buy off that extra darkness point or two.

Dave: 49:51

For exactly that reason you're talking about, that darkness point inflation, darkness point inflation gets to the point where you think, well, I've got so many anyway. What's another one gonna matter? So so, yeah, there might be a a nuance to to to put in there to try and try and make make it make a player more likely to spend a valuable faith point on

Matthew: 50:15

Yeah. On buying alcohol. If we put in the thing, which I've kind of already said, know, I'm still thinking about whether it's a good thing, about whether you start off, let us say, with 10 faith points.

Dave: 50:31

Yep.

Matthew: 50:33

But that is one faith point for each icon specifically related to that icon and an extra one for whichever your icon is, the one that, you know, you were born under in in the game system. And then I've said, we could have a rule, and I'm I'm still undecided on this, about you can only spend a darkness point. You can only spend faith to improve a role that is relevant to that icon. So Yeah. You know, when if you want to mitigate your faith, you you are probably discarding the icons that you think aren't gonna come up.

Matthew: 51:16

If you're in the middle of a gunfight, you might go, okay. Well, let's get rid of the messenger icon because we're not gonna talk our way out of this or whatever. And and make sure we keep the judge because I wanna spend that on my next thing. In the back of my mind, I think that's probably too complex actually to have that rule. But

Dave: 51:34

Yeah. It'd be

Matthew: 51:34

one that I'd want to potentially playtest a bit and see if I'm right. So two two I think it'd be far too limiting.

Dave: 51:41

Possibly. Yeah. But two things I'd I'd say there. One, there are nine icons, not 10.

Matthew: 51:46

No. So nine one for each icon plus one of your whichever your icon is. So you get two

Dave: 51:53

Oh, okay.

Matthew: 51:54

For your icon. Oh, okay. If you're the lady of tears

Dave: 51:56

You get two.

Matthew: 51:57

Say, was your icon in the game, you'd have two lady of tears icons and one of everything else.

Dave: 52:01

Okay. That's fair enough. Yeah. I was I was a bit worried that after all this time, you'd suddenly thought there were 10 icons instead of nine.

Matthew: 52:07

Yeah. Well, and there's the machine icon. Are a number of tent icons, and I'm looking at you, Dave, in this video.

Dave: 52:17

Well, we never finished that campaign, did we? But, anyway, so the second thing, I I think I agree with you potentially that that that idea of of making it icon specific would become too complicated. If you remember, and listeners, you you may remember some while ago, I did something similar about, trying to expand the darkness point mechanic into the the pantheon more greatly, you know, more widely. So if you pushed on a particular icon and you failed that role, you would get a kind of demerit with that icon. And eventually, if you got enough anger from the icon, something bad would happen.

Dave: 52:58

I started I did the session zero for a new Coriolis campaign ages ago, but never got further than that for various reasons. But in that one, we were trying out that mechanic. And even in the session zero, my brain was thinking, this feels like too much bookkeeping. And I think this might fall into that same category with one with one with one possible. Let me just say that with one possible exception.

Dave: 53:25

I think what you could do, and then you might have just mentioned this actually, is have a specific deck of cards, and they they they represent your faith points. And you have one Yes. Icon, and then you put that card away. But then when you gain a faith point, you pick a random card from your discard pile effectively.

Matthew: 53:46

Well, haven't.

Dave: 53:47

So you can never get in that case, you'd never get more than 10 faith points, but you could then replenish them.

Matthew: 53:54

Yeah. That might be an idea, actually. That's a that's a thought I hadn't really thought of. But, yeah, I was thinking the cards might be useful in this regard because I love those cards. Mhmm.

Matthew: 54:05

I don't particularly enjoy using them for initiative in the way that they were originally written about. And also, I'm a bit disappointed that they don't each feature different aspects of the icons. They're

Dave: 54:15

all Yeah.

Matthew: 54:15

They're the same icon. But I thought, this is the way the cards could go. Actually, a little bit differently. And this is a nod back to your pantheon idea where the discarded icon is the one who, you know, who makes trouble for you. Yep.

Matthew: 54:34

So I thought when you spend a faith point, you you know, you've got you've got 10 cards in front of you, one of each icon and and two of your own icon. Obviously, you're generally spending some of those, well, sorry. Not obviously. Mhmm. It what I'm what I'm saying is if we discard the idea that you you have to spend, say, the judge icon on on a a combat role or the dancer on a on a physical combat role, Let's forget that.

Matthew: 55:07

You you put an icon down that you to spend. If you're putting icon and if you're putting cards sorry. I'm not making it clear. If you're discarding cards just just to make the revolt, that's fine. But if you're discarding cards to buy off darkness, which you might do, then the GM would be would would would in in in my way of thinking, the GM would hold that deck of cards.

Matthew: 55:41

And so he sees what you're discarding. And if you discard something and bring it down to just one point of darkness, The GM and this is where the GM might go, okay. This isn't this is gonna be personal to you. Mhmm. You've just discarded the dancer.

Matthew: 55:57

So something movement related, some movement related mishap occurs to you right now. Immediate karmic justice. Mhmm. Or and if and maybe maybe if you don't if you don't buy off any karma, then you go or darkness, I should say. If you don't buy any off, then the GM is more likely then to keep it.

Matthew: 56:22

Okay. I'll I'll keep that pool for later on. Those darkness points will come into play later.

Dave: 56:30

Yeah. But

Matthew: 56:30

but when you do buy some off, maybe it's more likely then that the damage to you is or the damage, but the the mishap is more personal. Yeah.

Dave: 56:40

Yeah. No. I think you're I think you're on you got your you have a seed of something there. I think you're onto something. I I like the idea that rather than just delaying the the, you know, the the karma by building up darkness points, there is a risk that something would happen immediately.

Dave: 56:58

And it, you know, it would be a risk depending upon which which icon you've chosen to disrespect maybe or

Matthew: 57:06

or Exactly.

Dave: 57:07

Yeah. Impose upon in in burning off that darkness point that you would otherwise have yeah. Because you're because you're basically getting that icon to absorb that bit of bad karma for you. But then maybe that should run the risk that the icon goes, you you you impudent little mortal. I don't like that.

Dave: 57:27

And then have some immediate response.

Matthew: 57:29

You're going to trip and fall or whatever. Yes.

Dave: 57:32

I like yeah. That's quite cool. I like that idea.

Matthew: 57:36

Cool. Right. Well, you know what? At some point, when when I'm not doing my full time job anymore, and oh, you will be doing your full time job, hopefully. Fingers crossed.

Dave: 57:48

Well, I was gonna say sadly, sad but yes, hopefully. Fingers crossed.

Matthew: 57:52

We might get back to running book three of the adventure, of the campaign. Yes.

Dave: 57:57

It would be good to finish it at some point. Yeah.

Matthew: 57:59

And maybe we could playtest. I'll write up these rules and playtest them and we could give it a go. Yeah. And report back here

Dave: 58:07

Indeed.

Matthew: 58:08

To our eager listeners.

Dave: 58:09

In in due course. I was gonna say in several years, but in due course.

Matthew: 58:15

But yeah. Yeah. I think several years or due course have have both applicable to us. Yeah. Okay.

Matthew: 58:23

Well, I have no idea what we're gonna be talking about in two weeks' time.

Dave: 58:27

Me neither.

Matthew: 58:28

In fact, I do have an idea. I think I may be coming home from Sweden in two years time in two weeks time at the point we should be recording this.

Dave: 58:37

Okay.

Matthew: 58:39

So let us immediately say

Dave: 58:43

We might be late.

Matthew: 58:45

We may be late. I'm going to see our friend and patron, Nicholas, in

Dave: 58:52

I'm very I'm very I'm very envious.

Matthew: 58:54

I am vaguely wondering whether I could persuade Nicholas to give me a tour of Uppsala, and maybe I could record it. And that may be a bit of impromptu content that we put up in place of next week's episode. Particularly I'm just thinking this right off the top of my head.

Dave: 59:12

Particularly, if if, you know, you could do a a a Wesson tour of Ipsala.

Matthew: 59:18

Well, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. I won't I'm not gonna say yeah. Yeah. It would it would be Wesson related.

Dave: 59:26

I guess it

Matthew: 59:27

could could show me the sites that really exist.

Dave: 59:29

It does rather depend on on Nicholas being willing to do that and then having the time, of course.

Matthew: 59:34

Okay. Well, I'll I'll drop him a line. Now I've had this idea in the middle of the program. Yeah. Nicholas is one of our gold level patrons, so he may even listen to this having the idea.

Dave: 59:45

Yes. You know, well, if you are if you are listening, Nicholas, I I am very envious, and I hope Matt gives you a big hug from me. So it would've probably been

Matthew: 59:53

great see Right. Okay.

Dave: 59:55

Yep. Cool.

Matthew: 59:57

Obviously, not quite as big a hug as you would give him, because I'm frankly not as big as you are.

Dave: 01:00:04

Well, I've you're you're taller than I am, and you you you do have some girth. So maybe you are bigger than me.

Matthew: 01:00:14

Alright. Oh, alright. You've heard it here first, boys.

Dave: 01:00:19

Fatter than me then. As we say. Although, I am quite fat at the moment. Anyway, this is this is unlistory stuff to reveal to our our lovely listeners who've got better things to do than listen to this kind of rubbish.

Matthew: 01:00:31

And until then, so keep watching the socials as to what the contents of the next episode are gonna be and when, frankly, the next episode is gonna come out. It won't be very delayed. We will be back to our normal schedule within weeks.

Dave: 01:00:45

Yeah. Within well, yes. Indeed. Cool. Well, have a great trip to Sweden, pal.

Matthew: 01:00:52

Thank you.

Dave: 01:00:52

And on that note, it's goodbye for me.

Matthew: 01:00:56

And it is goodbye from him.

Dave: 01:00:59

And may the icons bless your adventures.

Matthew: 01:01:03

Unless you've discarded them, of course.

Dave: 01:01:06

In which case, they hate you. You have been listening to the effect podcast presented by Fiction Suit and the RPG Gods. Music stars on a black sea used with permission of Free League publishing.