Dave: 00:39

Hi all and welcome to episode two fifty eight of Effect. GSV, General Systems Vehicle. I'm Dave.

Matthew: 00:51

And I'm Matthew. And we have once more a somewhat packed program for you in this episode. But before we start that, I just wanna say a great big thank you to all our patrons. You're all marvelous. You keep this running.

Matthew: 01:08

And if you're not a patron yet, join the patronage and and come to the our Discord, which is a Patreon exclusive benefit.

Dave: 01:16

And is The nicest place on the Internet.

Matthew: 01:19

Place on the Internet. Well done. See, the training does work in the end.

Dave: 01:27

Does it?

Matthew: 01:27

Oh, hell. I'm just we we are we are gonna be talking about the world of gaming and shortly. And I've got a new western RPG to talk about, Macworld of gaming, that we've just been told about. So this is, like, hot off the presses. I haven't even read the

Dave: 01:47

you sure we want to talk about a competitor?

Matthew: 01:50

Yeah. We do, because we want to show that ours is so much better. This is cheaper, however. I'll give you that.

Dave: 01:56

I had a quick look at it. It does it does look I was gonna say it does look quite cheap. But it's it's it's I think it's aimed at a different level than ours. Let's put it that way.

Matthew: 02:05

Right. Okay. Let's not do Well, you can tell me about it in a bit. I will. I'll let The world of gaming coming up.

Matthew: 02:12

Then we are going to delve deeper into the great dark. Do you see what I did there?

Dave: 02:18

Delve. Well done.

Matthew: 02:20

Yeah. Well done. Well done. And that will be my content.

Dave: 02:25

You are a podcasting genius, mate. Every every time I do a podcast with you, I just I just I just get blown away by your genius. Again and again.

Matthew: 02:36

You kneel at my experience, don't you?

Dave: 02:38

I I my well, my my legs go weak and I feel a bit sick. Yes.

Matthew: 02:46

Anyway I'm so restraining myself. Dave, what is happening in the world of gaming? We are a week away from UK Games Expo. So in fact, I'm gonna change my question and say, what is happening in the world of UK Games Expo next weekend?

Dave: 03:05

Oh, what isn't happening? There's a lot this this is gonna be a particularly busy weekend for us. Mhmm. It's normally very busy. But this time, I mean, I think everybody who's a regular listener will know that we are going to be running two stands this time.

Dave: 03:21

We're going to be running the free league stand which you could be on you could find at in Hall 3 at Stand 1038. It's gonna be a big Well, it's not the biggest one we've ever had. Think we worked out, but it's

Matthew: 03:33

No. We thought it was the biggest one.

Dave: 03:35

We only realized that

Matthew: 03:36

last year we were a bit bigger.

Dave: 03:37

Only by a couple of square meters. And that's that's by dint of of kind of where we are. But, yeah, there's a full team going. We've got your your kids, Tom and Lily are coming and Yep. Lily's friend George.

Dave: 03:52

Fabulous to have them along as well. And then we've got my boy Dean. He's gonna come as he has done the last two or three years. And Boxboy. Can't forget Boxboy.

Dave: 04:01

Our very good friend, Neil

Matthew: 04:04

From Paladin Gaming. I wasn't gonna call him Boxboy.

Dave: 04:07

Well, you know, I didn't call Dean the name that we called him at Comic Con, so that I'm not gonna do that on air. That's not fair.

Matthew: 04:15

You'll be peached though, listener, that obviously we are excellent employers of our of our team.

Dave: 04:20

We don't bully our team at all. We don't belittle people or make their lives difficult or anything. But anyway, it's a great team. Fabulous bunch of folks, and it's always an absolute blast. But at the same time, we are gonna be running the effect podcast effect publishing.

Dave: 04:36

Let's get it right. Effect publishing stand, which you will be able to find also in Hall 3 at Stand 601601. So come along and and see us. Matthew's gonna be spending most of his time running that, but I'll be on there for a big chunk of time on Saturday. And we're obviously gonna be

Matthew: 04:54

And Sunday. And Sunday you'll be there.

Dave: 04:56

Am I only on Sunday? Anyway.

Matthew: 04:58

I think so. Anyway. Certainly. I've got a voucher here. I can work it out.

Dave: 05:02

Oh, well, doesn't matter. Don't mind. You'd be able come and find us at one of those two or both of those stands over the weekend. But that isn't just it because there's loads of other stuff that's going on.

Matthew: 05:12

Yeah. You're definitely there on the Sunday. You are there on the Sunday from 10:30 for an hour and then from 01:30 for an hour.

Dave: 05:20

Okay. Cool. That's all good. Yeah. So on the I mean, I know most people aren't gonna be there on the Thursday because obviously that's the the setup day for the for the likes of us who are going.

Dave: 05:32

But Thursday is the awards ceremony for the judges awards, 05:00 where one of us will go along and very gladly accept the award for Free League for the Moria expansion for the One Ring. Excellent work. Congratulations guys. Absolutely fabulous bit of work on that. Then there's a press thing in the evening.

Dave: 05:54

Now I don't know. Are we going to that in any sense?

Matthew: 05:56

Yes. We've got we've got our table at the press table.

Dave: 05:58

As effect

Matthew: 05:59

rather than free. I I asked you yeah. Yeah. It's just for us.

Dave: 06:04

I remember we had a conversation about Yeah. And and this thing, it sounds very grand, you know, the press event. But it's basically it's just like a mini convention where everyone sits around and people come along and say hello.

Matthew: 06:15

Yeah. We did it once for Free League

Dave: 06:18

Don't it? And we

Matthew: 06:18

told them it wasn't worth them paying for our time, actually, because

Dave: 06:24

Not that much actually happened. No.

Matthew: 06:26

Much actually happening. You know, some people with with press credentials got early access. Now given that you and I are working for free for for Effet Publishing, and and we've got a brand new game to say.

Dave: 06:45

We are Effet Publishing. Yeah.

Matthew: 06:46

We are Effet Publishing, but we're also, you know, we're if we are also unpaid by Effet Publishing. That is true. So far so far, at least.

Dave: 06:56

When Effect Publishing, bastard employer. I mean, don't doesn't doesn't pay us a penny. Works us to the bone.

Matthew: 07:02

We don't even get free games. Or discount off their store. Nothing. Nothing.

Dave: 07:10

No. I I I did offer you a a 10%, you know, staff discount.

Matthew: 07:16

Oh, a discount. Yeah. Yeah. To replace the broken book, I assume.

Dave: 07:19

Yeah. Think yourself lucky.

Matthew: 07:23

So, anyway yeah. So because because our time is free to us, we thought it might be worth going to push our book there on the off chance that somebody might be more interested in it than at that time and have maybe a longer chat with us. But, yeah, it may turn out to be a total flop, which case we'll never do it again.

Dave: 07:48

But in my I mean, it's got I mean, we've we've done it. I've probably done it three times over the years for for Free League, and it's good. It gets it's bigger each time, so there's more people coming. So it's we'll see how it is. But, I mean, for someone like us, it's it might well be worth doing it.

Dave: 08:04

For Free League, a lot less so. But anyway

Matthew: 08:07

Of course, that coincides with the award of the judges award for

Dave: 08:13

No. I've already said that. The judges award is at 05:00, which is ahead of it.

Matthew: 08:17

Oh oh, just before the press

Dave: 08:19

Yeah.

Matthew: 08:19

Press thing. Yeah. But I think I think they're in the same space as it were. So one leads into the other, I think. Yeah.

Matthew: 08:27

What else have you got on the on on on the calendar? So Given that you obviously have a better grasp of the calendar than I do.

Dave: 08:32

I do. I've I've written it down, which I think is probably more than you've done. Oh. I know. Who knew who knew writing something down would be a good thing?

Dave: 08:41

Yes. So getting on to the days when people might be around. So on the Friday, at 02:00, Matthew and I will be representing Free League at the on the main stage where we would be talking to On Tabletop who are the what would you call them? Not a lot of the

Matthew: 08:57

The media partners. The official media partners of Games Expo.

Dave: 09:00

That's the wrong word. Yeah. The media partner for UK Games Expo. Lovely guys. We talked to them quite a lot last year about Tales of the Old West, which is great, and it was a real pleasure.

Matthew: 09:09

And and about Free League. I mean Yeah. They were meant to be talking to us about Free League, but we managed to get an interview about Tales of the Old West as We did.

Dave: 09:15

We did, which was very good. Yeah. So yeah. So that's a twenty minute slot where we get to talk about all things Free League on behalf of Free League. And I hope

Matthew: 09:24

And also, though, Thomas has given us permission to talk about Tales of the Old West as part of the the Free League open license via zero engine. So Which is that's that's cool.

Dave: 09:38

So that's eighteen minutes of the twenty.

Matthew: 09:41

And then a couple of minutes on some games that Free League's made. Yeah.

Dave: 09:44

Yeah. Yeah. You know, old hat now. And then on the Saturday, so we I I've got a thing going on on Saturday. But before that starts, you are gonna be the master of ceremonies for the second annual Dragonbane competition.

Dave: 10:00

You can tell us about that. Absolutely.

Matthew: 10:03

So you may have seen the new starter scenario that came out last year, which was called the sinking tower. You may not be aware of the fact that that was the adventure that we had teams of role players going through on in in in a timed experience, sort of I think it was simply two hours of role playing, but obviously with pauses in between. But we had actual egg timers. I've got them here. I'm gonna take them back.

Matthew: 10:37

I've got to reread I I read the we've got a new adventure this year, and I read it when when it first came out in draft, which was blooming ages ago. It's different format to The Sinking Tower. I've gotta reread it, though, because I can't quite remember exactly what's going on and whether we're going to need the same egg timers, the timing, and things like that. We also, though the egg timers last year proved to be not massively reliable, so there will be a big clock on the screen as well. Mhmm.

Matthew: 11:08

And I will be emceeing that, and that will take pretty much all of Saturday afternoon according to what we have available to us, what with the, you know, prep and and and then the prize giving at the end.

Dave: 11:23

So does that

Matthew: 11:24

start with for prizes yet. Okay. Last year, we had some marvelous medals sponsored by another company, whose name I can't remember, until they promised to sponsor us again for this one. But if if they if if they don't come up with the medals, Trump, we will be giving away freely products as prices. And

Dave: 11:43

does that start at 01:00? Or is it 12:00?

Matthew: 11:50

Let me remind myself. Let me have a look at my own voter. I should have written this down.

Dave: 11:55

See, it's really helpful to write things down. I I think is it a 02:00?

Matthew: 12:00

Think no. I think it starts at 02:00.

Dave: 12:02

Yeah.

Matthew: 12:03

And I think I'm going off to prep at 01:30 according to my voter.

Dave: 12:07

Yep. Cool. And are there spaces left if people still want to

Matthew: 12:11

see Well, last I looked, which isn't, I must admit, this morning, but a day or two ago, was looking, there were six spaces left. Now

Dave: 12:21

Cool. Out of out of a total of what? About 50 or something?

Matthew: 12:25

40 or something, I Yeah. Or okay. I can't quite remember. So so there's probably enough there. If you've got a bunch of mates you play with regularly and you'd like to go and join as a team, you can do that.

Matthew: 12:38

Or if you just want to go on your own and get assigned to a team, you can do that too. We had a mix of both in in last year's. We had the Band of Badgers came and they played as a team.

Dave: 12:51

Oh, yeah. Cool. Cool.

Matthew: 12:52

We had a another team from Liverpool. Liverpool War Gamers came as a team and led throughout the every time every time I stopped to to check the score, the the Liverpool WarGamers were in the lead. But in the last half hour or last hour of the the game, a a a team made up of people who'd just come together and had been assigned, which I think included one family and a couple of other people who'd who'd just joined in the on the event, they actually turned out to be the winners. Cool. Congratulations to them.

Dave: 13:29

Dark Horse coming up on the rails. Excellent.

Matthew: 13:31

Yeah. Lovely. Was a it was a good good old match. It was fun fun to watch. I really enjoyed emceeing even though it was also quite hard work.

Matthew: 13:38

But and and, obviously, I have to say this can't happen without all the generous support of the volunteer GMs who come in. We had quite a few from our circle last year. I think this year, only Bruce can do it again. Mohammed's not coming over from Egypt to play Games this year.

Dave: 13:59

Oh, that's bitty.

Matthew: 14:00

And I think, somebody else who was that? Frank. Frank, joined us last year, but I don't think he can do Games Expo this year either. So but Bruce will be there and a lot of other brilliant GMs, because everybody was fabulous. So so if you if you're looking for a game, come and play Dragonbane.

Dave: 14:20

Cool. Okay. So that's that's what you're doing on Saturday afternoon. So Saturday afternoon for me, at 02:30, I am holding my what seems to be annual seminar now. And the seminar is going to be talking about role playing game design to to create a good player experience.

Dave: 14:40

But I want to open it up and make it a very informal discussion, which you which we usually do, and get lots of lots of audience questions and discussion going on. Great thing is I invited Steve Jackson to join me again. So last year, UK Games Expo said, Steve Jackson of Steve Jackson Games. It's Oh,

Matthew: 15:01

damn it. I was happy to say, which Steve Jackson? And then you could have replied, the one in from the role playing games industry. And then I could say, no. But which of

Dave: 15:10

the And

Matthew: 15:11

you could say, the one that's written Fighting Fantasy Adventures. And I can say, but which of the two?

Dave: 15:17

Anyway, Steve Jackson of Steve Jackson Games. So, yeah. So he he he he sort of asked if he could join last year, which was a pleasure. Was great. Absolutely.

Dave: 15:26

But this year, I I I popped in an email to see if he wanted to join me again, and he immediately came back and said, yes. That would be great. It was great fun last time. So brilliant to have Steve along again as my guest on that seminar. So that's 02:30.

Dave: 15:41

It's in the Piazza Suite, Piazza Suite Room Number 3, the boardroom. So come along join the join the chat. Last time it was standing room only which was fabulous. So yeah that would be good. So that's 02:30 on the Saturday And then I think on Sunday, we get the day off other than working on

Matthew: 16:00

get the day off other than running stands

Dave: 16:02

on Sunday. Working on if you let me fucking finish, mate. My lovely line was butchered by you stomping all over it. Anyway, we get the day off except for working on the stands because

Matthew: 16:16

Yeah.

Dave: 16:16

We haven't got any special thing arranged for the Sunday. Yeah. So it's gonna be a lot of fun. Great crowd of people who'll be working with us. It's always an absolute delight running into all the people that we always run into at at UK Games Expo.

Dave: 16:31

And there's a couple of groups that I see every year, but I don't see them any other time. I've got no idea what their names are, but it's always a real pleasure to catch up with them again and and have a quick chat.

Matthew: 16:41

Of course, they do tell you their name every time. You just can't be bothered by

Dave: 16:44

sure they do, actually. There's definitely one group that I've that I still haven't run Alien for, because they keep saying, you're you're gonna do an Alien demo. And I did I did the I did The Walking Dead for them, and I did Dragonbane for them, I think, over the years. Lovely, lovely bunch of guys from down Southwest. I think they're Cornwall, Devon or Cornwall, or possibly both.

Dave: 17:03

Lovely bunch of guys, so I look forward to seeing them again. I have no clue what their names are. I don't think they've ever told me, but yeah, it's a great fun thing, and it's always, it's always hard work, and afterwards I can't speak for a week, which is possibly a good thing for my wife. But, yeah, looking forward to it. Can't wait.

Matthew: 17:22

You should look after your voice like a voice professional like I am.

Dave: 17:26

I do need to, because, yeah, my throat does give me a bit of bother.

Matthew: 17:29

I'll give you some tips.

Dave: 17:30

All these people who I would never otherwise see, I see once every UK Games Expo, and it's always a delight to see them all. So I

Matthew: 17:38

really It does make going to conventions fun, doesn't it? Really does. Convention crowd.

Dave: 17:42

Yeah. Absolutely.

Matthew: 17:44

So drop us a line if you're going to UK Games Expo. Oh, well, one thing we ought to say, actually, particularly when we talk about the fact that we're not doing anything on Sunday, is we're not doing a podcast recording this year at UK Games Expo. Because frankly, we're too blooming busy.

Dave: 18:03

Yeah. Yes.

Matthew: 18:05

So you won't be able to come and see our podcast show and

Dave: 18:08

contribute to That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a pity. I mean, that was a lot of fun.

Dave: 18:13

I remember last year, there was there was one guy because obviously a lot of our friends and patrons come along, which is brilliant. Lots of lovely friendly faces. But there was one guy sitting at the back that we hadn't hadn't seen before, and about ten minutes in, he got sort of said, I think I'm in the wrong I think I'm in the wrong seminar. But then he stayed and enjoyed it because that was we did the quiz, didn't we?

Matthew: 18:34

We did the quiz.

Dave: 18:35

Yeah. He said, no. This wasn't the seminar Really?

Matthew: 18:37

Pump quiz.

Dave: 18:38

But okay. I'll stay anyway. But yeah. So that was quite cool. That was funny.

Matthew: 18:42

Yeah. Yeah. That was a fun quiz. I enjoyed doing that. Yeah.

Matthew: 18:46

Yeah. Makes me think that maybe we should find some way of recording something there because well, we'll we'll think of it. Well, bring Maybe we should

Dave: 18:55

Bring the equipment along, and let's see what we can work out. Yeah.

Matthew: 18:58

Yeah. Okay. So that is everything going on at UK Games. Well, it's not everything going on at UK Games. So there are gonna be some other companies there selling their games as well.

Matthew: 19:09

I I advise you only to remember Stand 3601 where we're gonna be and the other stand, which I can't remember, where freely you're gonna be.

Dave: 19:21

3103

Matthew: 19:23

Very memorable. 31038 or 3601. 6 0 1. Fix that in your memory. Easier to remember.

Dave: 19:33

Come along and buy everything.

Matthew: 19:36

What other news is there from the world of gaming, Dave?

Dave: 19:39

There's some new Dragonbane stuff coming out, which I don't know a ton about. A couple of books, isn't there, I think? So there's a Yes. There's an expansion called the the City Of Arkhand, I think it is.

Matthew: 19:54

Which looks like a piratical coastal city. So that looks fun.

Dave: 19:59

And and a book of a book of new magic.

Matthew: 20:03

Yes. Now the front cover of the city of Arkand has got a duck on it, obviously. But this duck has got an eye patch, I think, and a silver beak. Do you know why people had silver noses in the eighteenth century and seventeenth and eighteenth centuries?

Dave: 20:26

I guess they were replacements after their noses fell off from some horrible disease.

Matthew: 20:32

Generally from syphilis. Yes. You're right. Yeah. So we have evidence here that in the world of dragon veins Dragon

Dave: 20:40

veins, syphilis is a thing.

Matthew: 20:43

And and ducks suffer from it as well.

Dave: 20:45

That's for real. I wonder if you're the only person that leapt to that kind of logical conclusion from

Matthew: 20:56

the beginning. It was the first the very first thought I had on seeing that cover.

Dave: 21:01

Thought, oh,

Matthew: 21:01

dear. That that duck suffered from syphilis. Anyway It

Dave: 21:08

looks lovely as always. It's coming up on Kickstarter, so it's not out yet, but Kickstarter on the June 3.

Matthew: 21:15

Third of June.

Dave: 21:16

That's when it will open, so it's not so far away. It's a week or so. Yeah. The City of Waves and Flames, it's called. Arkand.

Dave: 21:26

So, yeah, it looks looks very cool. Looks very good.

Matthew: 21:29

Now seeing all this lovely stuff come out for Dragonbane is great, but it kinda makes me wish that something like that would come out for for Forbidden Lands. Yeah. I just like my Forbidden Lands system better, but

Dave: 21:44

Yeah. I don't I haven't heard anything about what's up for Forbidden Lands in in the future. I wonder if it's just taking a bit of a backseat for the time being.

Matthew: 21:56

Well, I I think if you're a Swedish company and you've got Dragonbane, I think you are morally required well, obviously, one should say in Swedish, You're Okay. You and your Swedish pronunciation. You know, I think you're morally a

Dave: 22:15

bit right, though, isn't it? I mean

Matthew: 22:17

You're morally obliged, though, to put that first, generally. Because

Dave: 22:24

Possibly. Possibly.

Matthew: 22:26

Yeah. Yeah. I mean Anyway I mean, it

Dave: 22:28

would I mean, I don't know. It would be quite interesting to see what the comparative, like, sales success of the two games

Matthew: 22:37

Oh, I think

Dave: 22:38

And I I don't I know. Dracot Okemora is is their baby. It's their, you know, the thing that they grew up with, and therefore it's gonna get an awful lot of love and attention. Particularly, you know, obviously now they've got the license, which they obviously didn't have when when Forbidden Lands was was created. But you had hoped that Forbidden Lands would still get a bit of love.

Matthew: 22:57

Yeah. I'm I'm they're they're kind of hoping for love, but I can be patient on Forbidden Lands. I mean, it's not like we've finished any one of the three campaigns that they've put out for Forbidden Lands yet. No. But then I can't even steer you in the right direction to finish one

Dave: 23:13

of the first That is that is true. But, I mean, you know, we we play it so rarely. And Yeah. Now you're running spectacular.

Matthew: 23:21

In fact, we're on pause for for Yeah.

Dave: 23:24

For superheroes. And then there's always the the possibility we might wanna go back to Coriolis at some point with, you know, Ayafet, Otho, and that group potentially, because that's a story that hasn't finished. So there's a lot of competing games that deserve airtime as well. And I said, I'm loving Spectaculars, but I I I I would love to still love to play more of Windlands. But yeah.

Matthew: 23:51

Yeah.

Dave: 23:52

Cool.

Matthew: 23:54

Right. So what's next in our list of games to talk about? No. So do you remember, Dave, the conversation we had years ago now about the new game that was coming out of Monte Cook games, and that was the Invisible Sun Black Cube? Yes.

Matthew: 24:17

You only remember that because I had to remind you

Dave: 24:20

before we started recording this. Well, that was that was my my very elaborate yes, which actually means no. I can't remember it at all. I having had a quick chat before we started recording, there there is inklings of memory in there somewhere. Yes.

Dave: 24:34

So but go on.

Matthew: 24:35

The Invisible Sun, it used to be the most expensive role playing game you could buy. A number of our patrons bought one, I seem to remember, including Phil and some other people. And it famously came in a big black cube costing something north of $300. And, of course

Dave: 24:59

That is if

Matthew: 24:59

bought it

Dave: 25:00

oofs, Phil, for money, isn't it? That is

Matthew: 25:02

Yeah. And, of course, if you bought it from The US in a Kickstarter or something, you'd be paying some enormous amount of postage too. Although, possibly not as much as the postage nowadays is. But it was a great big box full of stuff, and it was meant to be a role playing game for grown ups. It's a very surreal role playing game where the world we live in is the gray world.

Matthew: 25:24

It all feels very normal. But unlike a matrix underneath it all, there's a world of surreal magic and imagination underneath it. In fact, there's a bunch of worlds you can visit, and you are somebody who can flit between these different worlds and do magic at each other and, you know, generally have weird surreal adventures. It was meant to a game for grown ups, and I remember them saying a couple of things. The you know, the grown ups are time poor, so it's a game that, you know, you could work out that way.

Matthew: 26:01

And I remember my previous thesis being it didn't feel a game for time. Being an actual Time Paul grown up, it didn't feel like it was gonna be efficient in its use of my time like some other games. For example, Spectacular. It's a superhero game that we're playing, as mentioned, which is a real no prep

Dave: 26:24

Yeah.

Matthew: 26:25

Yeah. Or very low prep game and some other stuff there.

Dave: 26:27

Well, kind of prep as you go, isn't it? And that's that's actually part of the shtick of the game, which

Matthew: 26:32

actually Exactly. Everybody joins in the prep. Yeah. So so, yeah, that's the sort of thing I might have imagined for a game like this. And I wasn't seeing it there.

Matthew: 26:43

I did wonder whether it was whether it was a game for grown ups who weren't actually proper grown ups like you and I that have had kids and acquired a bunch of stuff and including our kids stuff, which then, you know, this then fills attics and cupboards all over the place, and, really, we need to get rid of it. I thought it was a game perhaps for people who'd only just turned into being grown up and got their first house or something, but nothing to put in it. Because this big black cube came with a bunch of plastic shit that you could put on your mantelpiece or your shelves, as well as ostensibly use them in the game. Well, the new edition that they're about or they are kick starting or not kick starting, they're on Bakuket, is called Indigo, Invisible Sun Indigo. And it is, I think, a relatively shit light version.

Matthew: 27:40

So if you've already got the black cube, there are no new rules in there. There may be a bit of tightening up of the rules or some something like that. But you you don't need to get it as a new addition. But if you didn't get the black cube because, like me, you had a house full of shit already, then this one might be the one for you. It's about a third of the price.

Matthew: 28:00

And what did you say it was? A hundred and $8 or something on the on the back of your kit?

Dave: 28:04

I saw I saw I'm on there now. Let me okay. I'm trying to see what the what the levels are. I I saw something that said a hundred and $80, but that was just that might not be

Matthew: 28:15

Oh, so more like half the price then.

Dave: 28:17

That might not be right. So I don't wanna Okay.

Matthew: 28:20

Anyway, hopefully cheaper to post as well, although with modern postage, may be more expensive. Less Okay.

Dave: 28:28

So you've got a bunch of levels. So yeah. Invisible so actually, yes. Invisible Sun Indigo, print and PDF, is a hundred and $79.

Matthew: 28:40

Right. More like half the price.

Dave: 28:41

Electric Sun on its own, which is another addition expansion, is 54.

Matthew: 28:47

Yeah. That's a new magic expansion.

Dave: 28:49

Yeah. But But then if you get the lots together, then it's 200. So you can get the Electric Sun for $20 instead of $54 if you get that along with Indigo. But so that's yeah. You're looking at a hundred and 80 to $200 at the kind of entry level, really.

Matthew: 29:08

Cool. And and the other thing is it's coming this time with a virtual tabletop. So suddenly, it starts steering itself more towards real time poor adults who may not be able to gather together for the games and stuff like that. I'm being unfair. There there were modes of play where two people could get together and do a side quest.

Matthew: 29:28

But I didn't particularly see that as a novelty. Anyway, there's that. Do we want to talk about betting bullets?

Dave: 29:37

So just so was just so there's crowdfunding at the moment. So if you're interested, it's running until June, which is about ten days from the point where we're recording. They've they've they've smashed their goal. Their goal was a hundred thousand dollars. They're nearly at 200.

Dave: 29:51

We have thirteen days to go. So if you're interested, crack on and go and have a look. I mean, Monte Cook, good bunch of people. I won't be backing it. I don't have that kind of money to splash at the moment, and I don't have space for a big box of stuff.

Dave: 30:08

But yeah. Yeah. So what were you talking about there? The Betting Bullets.

Matthew: 30:12

Betting Bullets.

Dave: 30:13

Yeah. So

Matthew: 30:16

this is a Western RPG that I just thought we should mention because one of our sponsors told us about it. I can't remember who that was. Bruce told us about it.

Dave: 30:27

Probably. Yeah.

Matthew: 30:30

It comes from composed composed dream games. It's cheaper than our game, but it has fewer pages. How many pages does it have? Anyway, it's a Western game. It includes gunslinging and horse wrangling, which is a bit like our game.

Matthew: 30:52

It includes something that we haven't considered, which are lonesome campfire songs.

Dave: 30:56

Well, think I mean, lonesome campfire songs, we haven't included it, but you could say that that would earn you a point of faith.

Matthew: 31:02

Earn you a point of faith. Yeah.

Dave: 31:03

If you're sat around your campfire singing a lonesome song. Or maybe maybe if it's just making you more lonely, it it takes away a point of faith.

Matthew: 31:13

Yeah. Yeah.

Dave: 31:16

This game does seem to focus on one of the things that we are very keen on as well though, which is your town. Mhmm. It it I think it seems to veer away from the idea of you are cowboys riding through the West, basically murder hobos, dungeon delving as they call it, or mind delving to to to to a game style where you are focused around a location. Yeah. I mean, all I've done is look at the page, so I can't really say anything else about it.

Dave: 31:50

I think it's probably I think the rules are some of the conflict are diceless. So quite how they how they do they say, you know, say you you use your bullets. So I wonder if you have a a limited number of bullets and you then bet a number of bullets and whoever bets the most bullets wins or something. I don't know. I'm speculating because I haven't read it.

Dave: 32:10

But it's you don't use dice to deal with conflict resolution. But, yeah, I mean, I I think it's a game that's on a different scale to ours.

Matthew: 32:22

Yes.

Dave: 32:22

So I think by the

Matthew: 32:23

way, with it I prefer the illustration in ours, I gotta say.

Dave: 32:27

I agree.

Matthew: 32:28

But it's not actually from Composed Dream Games. I see that they say that it's from Radio James Games.

Dave: 32:38

K.

Matthew: 32:38

Whoever they are. So anyway, check it out if you seriously want to. We'll put a link in the show notes. But obviously, there's also a link in the show notes to our game, which is called, remind me, Dave?

Dave: 32:52

Tales of the Old West.

Matthew: 32:53

Tales of the Old West. And I think it's time for some Old West news.

Dave: 32:57

Oh, nicely done. Oh, that was a segue. Well done, mate. I I

Matthew: 33:03

Kneel. Kneel at my feet. Podcasting Padawan.

Dave: 33:08

It's it's not a it's not a kneeling worth one that. I mean, it's it was a bit it was a bit blunt. You know? It wasn't subtle, but it was it was well worked.

Matthew: 33:17

You know? Cute. But, Anyway. Anyway. Tell us the Old West.

Matthew: 33:22

What is the latest news from the Old West, Dave?

Dave: 33:25

Well, you spoke to Jamie most recently, but US fulfillment is happening. Shipment arrived in The US. Whoo. Didn't sink or didn't crash in the aircraft, which is cool.

Matthew: 33:37

It's always good when the plane doesn't crash.

Dave: 33:39

It is always good when a plane doesn't crash, but oh, I was about to slide into political Don't don't. No. But yeah. So by now, which is Sunday May, every US backers package should be on the way in in the internal US post. So if you haven't received it already, it's gonna be on your doorstep pretty soon.

Dave: 34:00

I do know some have received it. I do know some have had email notifications that it's coming. So that is great. So thank you for being patient all our US backers. But, you know, we we are still in May.

Dave: 34:12

We said target delivery date was May. I'm pleased that we're getting it out to the vast majority of people by the time that we said we would. So great. Enjoy it when it arrives.

Matthew: 34:25

Yes. Yeah. And it's very exciting to hear that. I want to see the thing I love most about this game is seeing it in your settings. So when you get the parcel, take a photo of it.

Matthew: 34:37

I am not tired of seeing that cover. No. Put it on your table or in whatever setting you like. Maybe we should say there's a prize for the most unusual setting for it. Put it on your socials and

Dave: 34:51

No. Let's not encourage people to do some stupid selfie in somewhere dangerous to to win a what would be a pretty minor prize.

Matthew: 34:58

It would be a minor prize. But if you want to do something stupid somewhere dangerous, go ahead. No. Don't listen to Dave.

Dave: 35:05

Absolutely. Don't do it. Do something stupid, but somewhere safe. That would

Matthew: 35:11

be cool.

Dave: 35:11

That would be cool.

Matthew: 35:14

Alright. But remember, the dangerous places are the the best looking places.

Dave: 35:18

No. No. No. No. No.

Dave: 35:19

Don't encourage it. Enough people who kill themselves taking selfies in stupid places that

Matthew: 35:24

the last one legally required to tell you not to do it anywhere dangerous.

Dave: 35:28

And you are morally required by me to do that as well. Anyway. Yeah. Anyway. What

Matthew: 35:36

else? What else is there from the news? I'm sure I wrote something down in our show notes.

Dave: 35:43

Well, you're working very hard on getting our online retail system working.

Matthew: 35:47

Oh, Yes. That's a good point. Yes. So We

Dave: 35:49

we are very keen to get our our website up and running. Hoping to get that before UK Games Expo. That would be great. But you're the man doing all the work. So how's it coming along?

Matthew: 35:59

Well, we'll see how this bank holiday Monday goes, which will give me a real opportunity to do it. I for some reason, the the website is deciding to show as featured the dice tray as opposed to the core book. So I've gotta work out why that's happening. Right. I can't seem to simply change it to the core books, which may be a symptom of me cataloging the core books as two versions of the same thing, which they are.

Matthew: 36:28

One has got one cover, one has got the other cover. But for some reason, that may make it invisible to the featured element. Anyway, I'm gonna sort it. I'm gonna sort it. Cool.

Matthew: 36:36

And then the other thing I've gotta do, of course, is put in a table for shipping. I've gotta work out how to do that under this system.

Dave: 36:44

Right. Yep.

Matthew: 36:45

So that people get charged the right amount for whatever they buy. But hopefully so there's quite a lot of work still to do on it, to be honest. But hopefully, you will go to it there. We're doing it cheapskate, I've gotta say. So we're using a free shop from I can't remember with it.

Matthew: 37:05

Square or Stripe, one of the payment providers. And it will be linked to from our website, but it won't come with a, you know, fancy effect URL. It'll, you know, it'll have whatever the the URL of the free shop is.

Dave: 37:22

Right. Yep.

Matthew: 37:23

But, you know, it'll be safe and there'll be, you know, decent data protection for your details and your card details because it's coming from a Yeah. You know, a proper provider of payment details and stuff like that. And they'll take a bigger cut off each sale because they're giving us a shot for free. But until we see volume, that's the

Dave: 37:44

way to

Matthew: 37:44

do it.

Dave: 37:45

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, we I mean, again, we've got no idea how much traffic we'll get online. So, yeah, it's the right way to go about it. And then if we if we become more successful and it it requires it, we can then do something more bespoke perhaps.

Matthew: 37:59

Yeah. We could even pay a web developer to do it and who who won't struggle with the feature thing being the dice tray. The one thing that we've got the lowest stock of. I I even wonder whether it's doing that because stock's low.

Dave: 38:11

Right. Okay.

Matthew: 38:13

Maybe. Lowest lowest currently. We're getting some hopefully, in time for UK Games Expo. So if you're burning for a dice tray, do come and see us at UK Games Expo.

Dave: 38:22

Fingers crossed. Cool.

Matthew: 38:25

People are asking about our own virtual tabletop. They've seen that Invisible Sun is finally doing one, and they're saying, well, where's the sales of the Old West 1?

Dave: 38:38

It's coming. It's been worked on for some time now. Our developer is testing it, and he's got some testers to to help out with that. Quite what that means about how far we are from delivery and getting out in the world for people to use, I I don't know. Do you have a better sense?

Matthew: 38:56

I think Paul was kinda going something like next month, but that seems awfully close. But I guess well, I guess it depends a bit on, you know, it's out with five testers now. It it'll you know, hopefully, they'll discover whether it's got problems or not. And if it hasn't got problems, maybe it will be as out as soon as next month. Who can tell?

Matthew: 39:21

But yeah. But it's coming soon. I think that's what we can And it'll be coming via the Forge. I've signed a contract with Foundry. So you'll get if you if you're a backer, you'll get a free license where you'll get a link from us.

Matthew: 39:38

Yep. I'm gonna say this. If you're a backer and you get a link from us, if you are genuinely interested in using it, it's free to you. We made it free to everybody, but it does cost us money. So don't just use the link and, you know, and rob us

Dave: 39:55

of of

Matthew: 39:57

of of the money we have to pay to Foundry, unless you intend to use it. I'm gonna just say that because Yeah. That is a cost. When when we promised it, we didn't realize that that was a cost that was gonna be there. But but, yeah.

Matthew: 40:10

Yeah. Sorry. I don't I don't wanna be a Danny Downer on this, but that's

Dave: 40:15

Yeah. But, again, I think it's it's a fair point. So if if you if you wanna use it, obviously, crack on and get on and use it. If you're not interested in it, then then please don't don't take advantage of that when you get it.

Matthew: 40:25

And if you're not a backer, there will be a a obviously, the the the way that Foundry stuff works is the core system is free, so you can have a muck around in that. And in fact, we've added some stuff in the core system which we feel is really integral to playing the game, but which other publishers might expect you to pay for.

Dave: 40:45

Mhmm.

Matthew: 40:46

But we didn't think that was fair.

Dave: 40:47

Anyway, so the other thing for Old West news I just wanna throw in is I've been working on the Gold Country. Our next our next expansion. So the what I've been doing at the moment is actually my kind of my the most fun thing, but actually it becomes quite tiresome after a while, which is basically putting together all the maps that I think we're gonna need for the book. But also, that's great because it helps me when when we get to writing stuff, that really helps me visualize and focus on on the writing stuff.

Matthew: 41:20

You know, I was thinking about this actually, because you've shared a couple of these maps with me. And I was just just about to say that this is obviously your process. These these maps, while geographically correct, are also kind of mind maps for you, aren't they? Could they They're part of your meditative process about thinking how, you know, how are we gonna fit a story together in this landscape?

Dave: 41:45

Absolutely. I I I I get a lot of ideas just by drawing maps. And and I enjoy doing it. I think the the the thing that makes it difficult in this situation is making it authentic enough so somebody, let's say, who lives in California, doesn't go, that's bloody stupid. What the fuck are you doing there?

Dave: 42:03

What the hell have you done there? Yeah. That's particularly acute where it comes to cities. So I'm I've been I've done loads of work on trying to get a a map of San Francisco in 1850. And I've had two two or three iterations that were subsequently proven to be wrong when I did some more research.

Dave: 42:24

I now think I've got a good thing for for for San Francisco. So that's cool. That's gonna look really good. I'm enjoying doing that. But it is it's it's a fun process, but it's actually a really long and drawn out process as well when when you're doing it.

Dave: 42:41

I did find a really interesting so there's San Francisco you've got the San Francisco Historical Society which I found, and I haven't approached them yet but I probably will. But on their website, they've got a resource of about, I don't know, 40 or 50, maybe a few more, history videos. So I watched one of those, which is entitled the the topography of early San Francisco, which is a fifty minute video about San Francisco in 1850. And it was, I mean, it was pretty dry, and I think most people would probably find it really boring. But for me it was just absolutely fascinating, and there were so many things in it that I was pulling out, one to help with getting the map right, which is again really important, but also there was things where every few every few minutes I was going, okay, that's an interesting thing for a player.

Dave: 43:31

That's an interesting bit of color to make the place more authentic. That, you know so it was really good. I really enjoyed watching it and learned loads. So, yeah. So that process is ongoing at the moment.

Dave: 43:42

I'm trying to decide at the moment which other cities or towns we want to recreate in the world so players can go there. Some I discard because finding a map is really difficult, or actually some of them are really boring. Because in seems that for the main towns, things like places like San Francisco, Sacramento, Stockton, in in California in the '18 early eighteen fifties, the people who created them were really really, what's the right word, strict on how they set the towns up. So they set them up in a in a grid.

Matthew: 44:24

Grid. Yeah.

Dave: 44:24

As a lot of US cities are set up in a grid pattern because they were made from nothing. There was not there was not much there beforehand. But actually, for a gaming location and a map that you look at, it's really quite boring. So I've I've dropped a couple. There was an interesting one about Sacramento, which I think we'll probably include in the book, where I found a map.

Dave: 44:48

And on the map, you've got Sacramento. And then just over the river, you've got a place called Boston. And and I I thought, okay. I never heard of that. Nobody ever talks about it.

Dave: 44:57

And I looked on Google Earth and or Google Maps, and there was no place called Boston, anywhere near Sacramento. And I looked into it, and it turned out that that was what was called the paper city. And it was added to the maps to fool investors in the East into thinking there was more going on there than there was. Oh. So they would invest thinking that the city was bigger and there was more than one city.

Dave: 45:19

So that was a really cool little little bit of information. So anyway, at the moment we've got the the book planned out in in rough, so we've got a pretty good idea what we're gonna create for the book. I'm plowing through the maps which is great fun, but they're coming along and then yeah, once we've got those, we can really dive into the the actual text.

Matthew: 45:40

I can see an adventure there where there's some some highfalutin investors coming over from the East Coast. And the the the player characters are charged with making a fake city. Making Boston real.

Dave: 45:55

Or fooling them into thinking that this they haven't been fooled. Yeah.

Matthew: 46:00

No. It's

Dave: 46:01

it's it's great fun. Yep.

Matthew: 46:03

Cool. So, yeah, that's that's that's that's going going well. I haven't I I I'm I'm struggling to get a picture together. We we all wanna we want to do a picture. I Yeah.

Matthew: 46:15

Haven't Yeah. Managed to I I approached one of our artists, he said it was beyond him, which I think is probably right. But and, also, I've just been too busy. I think I'll approach Tazio next and see whether he can do something. Yeah.

Matthew: 46:30

And I've got some pictures to send him as reference, but I don't think we're gonna get it in time for UK Games Expo.

Dave: 46:38

Yeah. No. That seems unlikely now, doesn't it? Yeah.

Matthew: 46:40

Yeah. And I've got other stuff to do. I'm building a living shop for god's sake. Anyway, is that the is that all our Old West news?

Dave: 46:50

I think the only other thing I would say is yesterday, we had

Matthew: 46:55

Oh god. Yeah. That's

Dave: 46:56

the thing. Thought we had the first game of Tales of the Old West with the books and with the trouble dice and with the the official, dice trays and the GM screen. And, it was just great to to, you know, play the game with the game, actually, because we played it loads but without the game. But now we've had it. And, you know, we had a really good time, a really good session.

Dave: 47:20

But, yeah, it was nice just to be able to, you know, have the

Matthew: 47:24

Yes. It was fun. You know, obviously, a lot of people say, well, you know, if you have to refer to the rule books during play, actually, you're making a break in play. But I thought we made an extra special attention to it. Now what is the rule here?

Matthew: 47:37

Let us look at the rule book.

Dave: 47:38

Yeah. Exactly. Let me check this this handy dandy, really nicely done content index. And, oh, yes. I can did did find there's a couple of things that I could have put in the index that we didn't.

Matthew: 47:50

Yeah. But more difficult to find the new expensive to be. Yeah.

Dave: 47:53

Yeah. And then and then Tony, having said very, very nicely, and I'm I'm sure he won't mind us saying this, that he thought the book was a thing of beauty, and he really, you know, gave us a lot of praise, which is lovely for him to say that. He did say that when the first time he opened it, he instantly found a typo. Bastard. No.

Dave: 48:14

But he hasn't found another one since. So Yeah. So I think I I seeing seeing I I had the the week long task of proofreading it, I'm feeling pretty pleased if there's only one typo left in it. So yeah. But it was great fun.

Dave: 48:30

Had a really good session. And

Matthew: 48:33

We're gonna carry on in a couple of weeks' actually, the week after UK Games Expo as well.

Dave: 48:37

Yeah. You guys are far too slow, so we got nowhere near the end of the scenario.

Matthew: 48:42

Yeah. Well, you it's because we kept looking things up in the book.

Dave: 48:47

And going, oh, what a lovely book and having a big sniff.

Matthew: 48:51

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. We did. It's lovely.

Matthew: 48:54

It's lovely. And we we gave a copy of the book to our friend, Andy Gibbs, who has been a stalwart player, but

Dave: 49:01

Yes.

Matthew: 49:01

Couldn't back us. Although he's just offered us some money for it, and I gotta turn him down and say, no. It's a gift, Andy.

Dave: 49:08

Yeah. Happy birthday.

Matthew: 49:10

But the fun thing was I thought, oh, I drove up. I thought, oh, damn. Should I have picked up a packet of dice to give him just to round it out? Hell, yeah. And I'm glad I didn't because he had gone to one of our current stockists.

Matthew: 49:23

We haven't got much in retail the moment, but one of our stockists is Athena Games in Knowledge. He'd seen the display there, and I told him not to buy the book. So he didn't buy the book, but he did buy a pack of dice.

Dave: 49:37

A set of trouble dice. Yeah. A

Matthew: 49:39

set of trouble dice, which

Dave: 49:40

was

Matthew: 49:40

a fantasy.

Dave: 49:41

So And it was very cool using the trouble dice in anger for the first time. That was Yeah. That was very cool. Although, I obviously didn't get to actually roll any trouble of us being the GM, so I've got to wait until till my campaign gets going again with Tony running it to actually use them properly. But, yeah, that was great.

Dave: 49:57

It was really nice. I mean, a moment, like, where everything basically of the last six years basically all came to that moment.

Matthew: 50:06

Came to go?

Dave: 50:06

Really. Yeah.

Matthew: 50:07

Yeah.

Dave: 50:07

It was it was lovely.

Matthew: 50:09

It it felt very special occasion, actually. We tried to take a photograph of it. It's not great, but we might share it in our socials.

Dave: 50:16

I'll chuck it on the on on the socials anyway. But, yeah, it's anyway, cool. It's probably enough old news. Okay.

Matthew: 50:26

Us talk about building great ships in the great dark.

Dave: 50:30

General systems vehicles, as you call them.

Matthew: 50:33

Right. Yes. I ought to explain this. So Do

Dave: 50:36

you wanna do you wanna explain afterwards?

Matthew: 50:38

No. I'm gonna explain it beforehand. Now you brought it

Dave: 50:40

up. Okay.

Matthew: 50:42

So in the book, the great ships are called the GSV, this, that, or the other. And it reminds me about general systems vehicles from the culture novels by Ian m Banks. And yes. And you will see in this that maybe that is an unfair comparison. I really, really, really want to love Coriolis, the great dark.

Matthew: 51:13

But it confounds me again and again. A couple of months back, we got the pretty good beta version. The illustrations by Martin Grip is lovely. The endpapers feature geometric maps of this new lost horizon, and there is a more readable map among the pages. The graphic design is great.

Matthew: 51:44

But when I backed Choriodis the third horizon, I read through the PDF eagerly from beginning to end. I loved every paragraph, every word. In my mind, I was already expanding the world. Hell, it even inspired me to call my mate Dave and suggest we start a podcast about it. The great dark has not inspired me in the same way.

Matthew: 52:19

I have read the PDF like I read most other games, using the contents page to direct me to the bits I'm most interested in, at the best skim reading, at the worst ignoring the rest. But as I reported a few weeks ago, some of our patrons enjoyed a great version of the starter adventure run by our friend and patron, Thomas. Check back on episode 256 to hear us all discussing it. But one of the things that inspired me the most was the great ship. Thomas had realized there was a great opportunity for intrigue, one of the key themes of the game, according to page nine, and there was.

Matthew: 53:12

Thomas painted scenes of trying to gain favor at a massive captain's dinner, a creeping electrical failure that might have been sabotage, a cult of courier light worshipers who had created a communal space in the bowels of the vessel, and rivalry between factions that spilled out into an incident that might have destroyed the ship. I was impressed that the adventure contained such detail, So many story hooks that seemed tailor made for the diverse backgrounds of the player characters. It turned out, though, that the hooks seemed tailor made because they were by Thomas. None of the great ship detail came from the adventure. Thomas explained that he had expanded the adventure using material from some of the background lore plus his knowledge of our characters.

Matthew: 54:16

I was thrilled by what he had done. I was inspired to give building a great ship a go. But what I thought I would be doing is using the great ship building tables in the relevant chapter towards the end of the book. And here was my next disappointment. There were no such tables.

Matthew: 54:39

In fact, there isn't even a whole chapter on great ships. There are just four pages in chapter 11, space travel and expeditions dedicated to great ships. Two of those pages are a labeled illustration of a great ship. And I'm going to say it. Even that illustration is disappointing.

Matthew: 55:03

I blame Thomas for that. He has painted a picture in our minds that was big, not as big as the high liners in the dune movie, but similar to those in structure. A huge cylinder with the hollow space in the middle being where shuttles and maybe even slipstream cruisers dock to protect them from the hazards of the slipstream. What we get in the book, however, is more modest. The shape is less exciting too, an oversized submarine.

Matthew: 55:45

Now I get the reason for this. The game is inspired by tall ships of the nineteenth century, and in particular, the fascinating novel, The Terror. To make the great ships too out of this world, too big even, might that might make them feel too safe, less like a tool ship, and more like an ocean liner. Labels point to various parts of your standard great ship, the graviton projector, the bridge, the infirmary, the crew compartments and galley, etcetera, etcetera. Talking of which, that infirmary and crew compartments are indicated in the drawing by a row of portholes.

Matthew: 56:37

They add to the previous century feel of the vessel, but they also make it seem much smaller than it should. I have a sneaking suspicion that the rover and human figures at the bottom of the picture were added later to try and restore some scale to the ship. But I should be more positive. The labels are not just labels. Well, actually, most of them are, but a couple are almost almost a table too.

Matthew: 57:15

Listing upgrades that some great ship might have to distinguish them from the others. Not every bridge has a ship intelligence, an orbital scanning suite, or escape pods. And not all crew compartments feature comfortable cabins, a shrine, an arboretum, a library, a laboratory, or hydroponic farms. Some of these items even come with gear bonuses for certain tasks. But, generally, there is not enough material to truly distinguish between the great ships.

Matthew: 57:53

I was hoping for a few pages of tables to help a GM create a vivid picture of the quirks and idiosyncrasies of each vessel. What is the one feature each great ship has that none of the others share? What is the personality of the ship intelligence? What are the weird traditions of the crew? What strange cargo does the captain Albae insist is replenished before every voyage?

Matthew: 58:22

What are the intrigues particular to each vessel? Which function has the most authority among the command crew. None of that exists. Yeah. That leaves plenty of scope for great ships to be fleshed out in future supplements, but I am disappointed that each of only 11 great ships in existence does not warrant a short paragraph full of story hooks like even the minor systems of the third horizon got.

Matthew: 58:53

Let's end this essay then with my own thoughts about one of the great ships, the GSV Zalos. This great ship is firmly in control of the Navigators Guild, and that is reflected in the crew of the Zalos. The under captain, Ubon Din Jamil, has no truck with courier lights, and this is most evident in the absence of the Herat role on the command crew. There is no shrine to the nine icons on the vessel. And if anyone is foolish enough to question Din Jamil on the matter, they will be on the receiving end of a rant about how icon worship is a made up religion that brought about the end of the third horizon.

Matthew: 59:44

That said, there is a strange quasi religious tradition that passengers of the ship find hard to get used to. Occasionally, at strange times that no one outside the crew can reliably predict, the crew down tools to open up all the communicators and sing in polyphonic harmony a prayer of safe passage to the end of the journey. The captain Al Bey's voice joins in the chorus, but he is seldom seen. He keeps modest quarters it is said at the very heart of the ship.

Dave: 01:00:28

So it's really interesting hearing your your piece there Matt and I'm coming from this from a point of view of somebody who hasn't looked in the book yet or hasn't read any

Matthew: 01:00:39

You do like to have a proper book to

Dave: 01:00:40

look at. I love to have the real book to sit down and read. I'm I'm not a big fan

Matthew: 01:00:43

of that you ever, you know, read the rules of the game you we wrote given that it's all been electronic. Oh, no. You actually, you did have a paper copy, didn't you? You'd printed it all out.

Dave: 01:00:55

Yes. Yes. So whenever I was running anything, I printed off the relevant chapters and stuff. Yeah. I much prefer to have paper.

Dave: 01:01:01

So I haven't read that. So, you know, I've got no none of that context. But, I think the one thing that that really jumps out from what you were saying is, is something that bugs me. A bug is that the right word? Something that's It

Matthew: 01:01:15

might bug you. It bugged me, I think.

Dave: 01:01:18

Slightly disappointed me about spaceships in Coriolis as a whole, which was, they never quite seemed to make of it what I wanted them to make of it. It never quite took the front and center position in the mechanics, in the way the rules work, in the way I kind of wanted it. So spaceships in the the third horizon are great. That's fun. They they are almost a character of in in their own selves.

Dave: 01:01:49

And as a player, I invest a lot of my love in the ship that my my characters own or crew or pilot or whatever. But they were still just a ship. There wasn't any anything about them that made them greater than that. And I was thinking from certainly from our early conversations with with Nilsson and Costa, that the great ships in the great dark would fill that gap. And, again, it feels to me from what you're saying that it still doesn't quite doesn't quite hit that mark.

Matthew: 01:02:19

I remember you being disappointed about Coriolis, third horizon, that the ship the shipbuilding and development rules were not like the arc building stroke development rules that you had in Mutant Year Zero.

Dave: 01:02:36

Exactly. Yeah.

Matthew: 01:02:37

A say in it. And it feels to me that that feels like a burning absence from this rule set as well. Yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, the story, narratively, at least in in Third Horizon, you have a financial interest in your ship generally. So the players can narratively make a decision about we are going to build this new module to it or, you know, make this modification to it.

Matthew: 01:03:04

Whereas, I don't think there's a narrative reason why the players would be making any decisions about a great ship because they are not running the great ship. They are merely passengers effectively on the great ship in in the way the narrative flows. But you could still you know, we are merely townsfolk in tales of the Old West, and yet we get to make a decision to spend our development points.

Dave: 01:03:30

Yeah.

Matthew: 01:03:32

Settlement points.

Dave: 01:03:33

Settlement points. Yeah.

Matthew: 01:03:35

Settlement points to influence the development of the town we are in and maybe take a direct influence if, you know, you you kill the mayor and get voted in in his place, Dave. My

Dave: 01:03:49

character doesn't want to be mayor. He's he's he's a good guy. He's running his business. Not hurting anyone.

Matthew: 01:03:59

And yeah. So that feels like a noticeable absence here. And there are a couple of other things where I felt there may have been some stuff like that in an earlier draft, and it got stripped out and made smaller to fit it into a page count.

Dave: 01:04:17

I mean, you say you say that there's only, like, four pages of of references written about great ships. Yeah.

Matthew: 01:04:25

Yeah. And I just wanna point, in fact, to one of those because it's really pissing me off actually, I think.

Dave: 01:04:31

If

Matthew: 01:04:33

I can find it. I did have it up. What have I done with it?

Dave: 01:04:38

Yeah. I mean, while you're searching for that, I'll just say one of the things. You talk about, you know, hoping to find a few pages of tables to help the GM create their their create a a, you know, a bespoke feel for the for the ship and and what life is like on it. And it surprises me that they haven't done that, because that's one thing that they're very, very good at. Forbidden Lands does it really well.

Dave: 01:05:01

The little stuff in there about randomly generating stuff is brilliant. And so, you know, I kind of thought that that would be an easy win for them, you know, just to just to put that talent for doing that into something that relates to a great ship. So I'm just

Matthew: 01:05:17

pointing Absolutely. That that's what I was expecting. I thought I could roll on a bunch of tables and create, you know, a a great ship that, you know, that was procedurally interesting for our players, which is what I thought that Thomas had done in the game that we played, but I I can't see those rules. And there's one table I really wanna point out, which is called great ship attributes. Yep.

Matthew: 01:05:43

It has, apart from the header line, three lines. One of those lines this is on page 192 for those of you following through at home. One of those lines refers to great chips.

Dave: 01:05:58

Right.

Matthew: 01:05:59

So the title of the table is great ship attributes. One line on that says that great ships have a hull of 12 to 30 and the speed of two to four. Or two yeah. Four in the slipstream, two maneuvering, whatever. And, yeah, that's that that is all the great ship attributes you get.

Dave: 01:06:28

Yeah.

Matthew: 01:06:29

I feel cheated. I feel cheated. I mean, as I talked about, you know, a couple of the labels in the diagram of a plate chip kind of hint towards once upon a time having been a table and maybe once upon a time having been the opportunity for you as players to say, okay, how are we gonna spend our great ship development points? Let's let's lobby for a shrine or whatever. But but, no, I'm I'm I'm disappointed.

Matthew: 01:06:59

Can you sense my disappointment?

Dave: 01:07:01

I can. Yeah. I can. Very much so.

Matthew: 01:07:04

Yeah.

Dave: 01:07:07

Likewise, I think, you know, I'm I'm I'm a little disappointed too, even though I haven't read it yet. But

Matthew: 01:07:13

You can upgrade your shuttle. So, you know, there's a couple of pages on on well, there's more than a couple of pages in fact. There's no. Actually, there are four pages just as they are on great ships. But in a way, that kind of points even more.

Matthew: 01:07:27

So that gives us three basic shuttles to choose and then three decently table y tables of things that you can do to your shuttle to make it your own. And, obviously, that is narratively the only thing that players have stuff over. But but I just feel that we could have written you've used the same space and created some tables like that in the same space on great ships to be able to kind of cover this is how your great chip may be different.

Dave: 01:08:01

Yep. However Okay. Well, maybe that leaves

Matthew: 01:08:04

a lot is.

Dave: 01:08:05

Maybe that leaves

Matthew: 01:08:06

an opportunity. Scope for that. An opportunity for

Dave: 01:08:10

Yeah.

Matthew: 01:08:10

For the three d workshop or whatever.

Dave: 01:08:12

Yeah. That's just what I was gonna say. Yeah. An opportunity for someone to to create, fill that gap and and and put that up on the workshop. Yeah.

Matthew: 01:08:23

Yeah. And and also another disappointment, and this is this is less of a problem, I think, but another disappointment for me is it makes ships apart from the weird sizing issues, think there is about the illustration. It also makes great ships slightly more boring than the one that Thomas made for us.

Dave: 01:08:44

Right.

Matthew: 01:08:45

You know, if if they're all vaguely the same shape and it's like a great big submarine, then that's a bit dull. And I'm thinking about the diversity of the ships in in the third horizon where one felt that there was real difference there. The fact that all the ships in the Xelosian fleet had, like, pictures of martyrdom and great battles won and stuff painted across the side of them. I'd like to see something like that here.

Dave: 01:09:16

Is there is there anything in the game that that tells of the origin story of the great ships? Do they all come

Matthew: 01:09:22

from the There there is.

Dave: 01:09:23

Do they all come from the same place effectively, which would explain why No.

Matthew: 01:09:27

I don't think so. So, you know, a great ship is invented. There's a personality behind that great ship. Think then some other people built some other great ships. That sounds really I'm oversimplifying.

Matthew: 01:09:41

But, again, that is an interesting thing in itself. Inspired by them saying, Oh, the most elegant great ships come from this shipyard. I mean, actually there is only the one shipyard because we're all stuck on Ship City. Let's rebuild these great ships. So they all come from Aluminum Bay.

Matthew: 01:09:58

But yeah, I just feel there was more they could have done with the story there. Which is why I sort of show, I mean I'm not claiming to be a great writer but that's why I did that final paragraph there, to say how you might relatively efficiently, in terms of word count, have put in some flavour text. One of those paragraphs that the third horizon was full of, where every paragraph doesn't necessarily give you the answers, but hints of the story that you as a GM might want to expand Yeah.

Dave: 01:10:35

So so in effect, are the great ships basically just a a mechanism to get you from one system to another without much of

Matthew: 01:10:43

going on? Worries me is they could be played like that. Yeah. And

Dave: 01:10:47

because because I kind of assumed you would have the whole sort of, you know, political and societal, cultural, like, melting pot that you get in in the ark in Mutant Ninja Zero, but on a ship traveling around somewhere.

Matthew: 01:11:02

And so we did in Thomas's Yes. Game that he ran for.

Dave: 01:11:06

But that was down to Thomas's effort. But that was

Matthew: 01:11:09

mostly down to Thomas.

Dave: 01:11:10

What the book was giving him. Yeah.

Matthew: 01:11:12

Yeah. And, you know, the important thing is, of course, I'm not saying that Thomas is the best GM in the world. Mean, obviously, he

Dave: 01:11:18

is, but I'm not gonna say He's very good GM. Yeah. He is a very good GM.

Matthew: 01:11:22

What worries me is there's not really much that encourages you to go down that route as a GM. You know, there's if you compare the four pages on Great Ships to the well, I don't know how many pages there is on delving. But, you know, there are mechanical rules about delving. Some say maybe too mechanical, too board game y rules about delving. But it makes the delve the focus of the game despite the fact that on page nine, it says that intrigue is the focus of the game.

Matthew: 01:11:51

This is my problem. This is my problem.

Dave: 01:11:55

It's a mixed message. I

Matthew: 01:11:57

There is a brilliant experience in this game, but I feel it's kind of hidden in this game.

Dave: 01:12:02

Right.

Matthew: 01:12:03

And it isn't laid out for you in the way that it should be. And this is a great example. The Great Ships is a great example of the problem. So can I ask you oh, actually, this probably won't work for you? Do you do you do you see an underlying story in in my description of the GSV Xalos?

Dave: 01:12:33

I have to have a quick reread of that last paragraph. Okay.

Matthew: 01:12:37

You just skimmed at it, didn't you, Lane?

Dave: 01:12:40

No. I did read it, but I read it yesterday. You know?

Matthew: 01:12:43

So you've had all night to congregate it on going, and you should have woken up at 02:00 in the morning. Oh, I see. That's what he's doing.

Dave: 01:12:50

Yeah. I know. I like I it it sets it sets a cultural tone, I think.

Matthew: 01:12:56

It does. Yes.

Dave: 01:12:57

Which is which is good. And then, you know, that cultural tone then raises the question of why? So why do they down tools to sing their hymns? And, you know, why does the captain not particularly approve of that, but joins in because he feels he has to? So yeah.

Dave: 01:13:15

Yeah. So I think definitely, there's definitely options there in in what you've written. But again, did that that that that wasn't generated was generated out of your head rather

Matthew: 01:13:27

than That that came

Dave: 01:13:28

yeah. From The supporting material in the book.

Matthew: 01:13:31

And you see, there's there's other stuff. So character generation has got tables like this that, you know, hint at weird shit going on that it doesn't fully explain. And and that never mattered in No. In the Third

Dave: 01:13:43

You fill in the gaps yourself. Exactly.

Matthew: 01:13:45

Your mind fills in the gaps. And and actually, there is in this one, this is so truth be told, it's the GSV Salos. You know I'm a big fan of the Zorocians. I think they've been mistreated in in Third Horizon. They were ultimately right.

Matthew: 01:14:03

The icons were a massive con, and only they saw it. They knew what was, know, what was about to go down. And also, you know, I have, in the previous episodes of this fine podcast, expressed that they are the closest factory to actual Starfleet from Star Trek. So my argument is, who are the navigator's guild? The navigator's guild are actually the Xossians.

Matthew: 01:14:31

Cool. And and they had a there's a thing that featured in the call, but that we never really focused on. But there used to be I can't remember what they call them. Call centers or something, which were they used to be satellites that would just float around in space singing praise to the end times. And the end of the journey may not be the simply the end of the journey.

Matthew: 01:14:55

It may be the end of humanity's journey that they're they're going

Dave: 01:14:58

to get on. Possibly. Yeah. No. I I used those in the in the Spectre of Corsair campaign because there

Matthew: 01:15:03

was a Yes. Yes.

Dave: 01:15:04

There there was quite a big Xolosian focus on that. They got stuck in Xalos for for months, you know, trying to get out. But yeah.

Matthew: 01:15:12

So that's so that's it. So that's why they're all, you know, they they are they are kind of carrying on that Xalosian ritual to the Xalosian time thing, which is why I said nobody could work out quite what what the pattern was of their of their daily chanting. Yeah. It's cool. I

Dave: 01:15:28

like it. Yeah.

Matthew: 01:15:29

Which is fun. And there are other things in the book that you go, oh, I know where that's from in the third horizon. Oh, yeah. Very clever.

Dave: 01:15:37

Yeah. Nice.

Matthew: 01:15:38

So that feels like that. But yeah. Cool. We'll beat this game into submission and make it something fun.

Dave: 01:15:48

Well, it sounds like you had a lot of fun playing it anyway. So as as

Matthew: 01:15:51

Oh, absolutely.

Dave: 01:15:52

Yeah. So I think there's an opposite there's a lot there's a lot to be to be offered by, you know, a lot being offered by this game. But I think, you know, just by by the standards that we've come to expect from from Free League, there are when there's a kind of an obvious omission that could have been rectified with relatively few additional words in the word count, then it's like you say, it's a little bit frustrating and disappointing that they didn't do that.

Matthew: 01:16:19

Yeah. And, you know, so if they'd put like so there are 11 great ships. They didn't even need to describe all of the 11. They maybe shouldn't. Like, they only described a few of the of the systems in in The Third Horizon.

Matthew: 01:16:34

But but two or three descriptions like that could then inspire GMs to say, okay. I'm gonna take Yeah. This great ship, and I'm gonna make it something like that. But instead of this, I'm gonna have this, this, and this.

Dave: 01:16:49

Yeah. And that's about a hundred words you've used to, a 50 at most. Yeah. So it's not it's not a lot.

Matthew: 01:16:55

And I do

Dave: 01:16:55

worry because because they can't get a big bang for their buck, aren't they? Like in in Coriolis, original, you know, Third Horizon, you know, the bang for your word buck is is is very high. Massive.

Matthew: 01:17:06

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not even saying I've written that terribly efficiently. You know, that's effectively the first draft. We could run it part through the editorial process and and skim it down a few more and get tighter words.

Dave: 01:17:17

Absolutely.

Matthew: 01:17:18

Yeah. They they could have done that. They could have done that. And it just worries me a bit that maybe maybe this is a symptom of now, I mean, know, previously they have let page counts grow. We've done the same with our with our game.

Matthew: 01:17:34

Yeah. And, you know, maybe that this is a symptom of the discipline of saying, no. Cut all that out. You can't afford it. Yeah.

Matthew: 01:17:44

And and that's a pity if that is the process.

Dave: 01:17:49

Yeah.

Matthew: 01:17:51

Right. Cool. Okay. Well, this feels like I'm being a bit of a downer on this one again.

Dave: 01:17:55

Well, that was why I was trying to round off this section by saying there's gonna be a lot of great stuff in this game. But, yeah, yep. But then you went, yeah. But still, this is shit and this is shit. So I was trying to I was trying to end on an upload, but you didn't get the hint as usual.

Dave: 01:18:10

Anyway, we we we have banged on enough for one day, I believe.

Matthew: 01:18:13

We have. Yeah.

Dave: 01:18:14

So next time, I don't think we've got anything particular planned, but we will obviously be reporting back from UK Games Expo.

Matthew: 01:18:22

And we might try and make a recording of something at UK Games Expo as well.

Dave: 01:18:26

It's probably worth trying to do something, isn't Yeah. Let's have

Matthew: 01:18:30

bit of a think about that.

Dave: 01:18:32

Alright then. Well, in which case?

Matthew: 01:18:35

It's goodbye from me.

Dave: 01:18:37

And it's goodbye from him.

Matthew: 01:18:40

And may the icons bless your adventures, even though they're a massive con.

Dave: 01:18:53

You have been listening to the effect podcast, presented by Fiction Suit and the RPG Gods. Music stars on a black sea used with permission of Free League Publishing.